Immigration Reform: Calling all Battle Stations
Frontera Nortesur, News Digest, Staff Posted: Mar 22, 2010
As the health insurance battle roared to a climax on Capitol Hill, new legislation over long-delayed immigration reform could be the spark for the next testy political battle in the United States. Initially backed by President Obama, a blueprint for a bill unveiled last week by Senators Charles Schumer (D-NY) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC) could become the center of fresh controversy.
On the eve of the March 21 pro-immigration reform rally in Washington attended by tens of thousands of people, the Oakland-based National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights expressed concern over the general provisions outlined by the two senators.
Schumer-Graham, the Network cautioned, “would extend and deepen harsh enforcement practices that have caused trauma and separation for immigration families, fostered racial profiling and led to tragic deaths at the US-Mexico border for migrants seeking a better life.”
As presented, the Schumer-Graham framework emphasizes more border security, a guest worker program, the expansion of the controversial E-Verify employment eligibility system, the introduction of a biometric Social Security card, and a “tough but fair” path to legalization for undocumented residents.
While conceding the Schumer-Graham blueprint is “still vague and without any many details,” the Network nevertheless questioned the proposal’s accent on border security, workplace enforcement and visas for the “best and brightest immigrants.”
The blueprint’s preference for highly-skilled immigrants, the Network contended, would encourage the “brain drain” from migrant-sending nations while simultaneously cultivating a class of temporary, lesser-skilled workers who could be easily exploited in sectors of the US economy demanding low-wage labor.
Other immigrant advocates also weighed in on Schumer-Graham.
Separately, the Washington-based Reform Immigration FOR America and Americas Voice organizations greeted the senators’ blueprint, but both groups stressed that any immigration reform must include a pathway to legalization, protection of family unity and opportunities for the creation of millions of new taxpayers.
Introduced last December, a comprehensive immigration reform bill sponsored by Democratic Representative Luis Gutierrez of Illinois awaits action in the House. While likewise addressing border security and law enforcement, the Gutierrez legislation prohibits the creation of a national ID card, reforms existing guest worker programs and creates a number of steps employers must fulfill before hiring foreign-born labor.
It also includes a pathway to legalization with a fine.
Quickly responding to Schumer-Graham, the American Civil Liberties Union criticized the blueprint’s endorsement of a “new and expensive” electronic employment verification system. According to the ACLU, the senators’ proposal for biometric worker identification is a “thinly-disguised” attempt to implement a national ID.
“It is unacceptable to force every American worker to be fingerprinted in order to work,” said the ACLU’s Christopher Calabrese.
In New York, meanwhile, members of the pro-immigrant May 1 Coalition, a pro-immigrant rights organization, staged a demonstration outside Senator Schumer’s office on Saturday, March 20, blasting the senator’s legislative outline for casting immigrants as “terrorists and criminals.”
On the other side of the political aisle, opponents of legalization are stepping up their lobbying and organizing campaigns.
On March 20, supporters of Numbers USA visited Congressional offices to deliver a letter that urged elected representatives to oppose a “comprehensive amnesty” which would “devastate” 25 million unemployed and underemployed Americans.
In its letter, Numbers USA also backed electronic verification of employment eligibility, and appealed on lawmakers to support the SAVE Act, a piece of legislation sponsored by Representative Heath Shuler (D-NC) that proposes additional immigrant detention centers, among other provisions.
Nationwide, the Tea Party against Amnesty movement plans rallies from April 15 to 17 in California, Arizona, Florida and other states.
While immigration politics revisited Washington, the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC) vowed to return to the Arizona-Mexico border this week to help Border Patrol agents apprehend undocumented crossers.
In a March 16 statement signed by Carmen Mercer, Tombstone restaurateur and MCDC president, the group called on its supporters to come to the border armed with long guns and outfitted with supplies for a long stay.
Directing rhetorical fire at political leaders, the MCDC sharply criticized Arizona Senator John McCain, President Obama and Homeland Secretary Janet Napolitano for supposedly not protecting the US border.
“This March we return to the border locked, loaded and ready to stop each and every individual we encounter along the frontier that is now more dangerous than Afghanistan,” the MCDC said.
The MCDC’s announcement of its upcoming border deployment coincided with other events in Arizona, including last week’s law enforcement operation aimed at undocumented immigrants. Launched by the Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office, more than 400 law enforcement personnel and posse members used helicopters and air patrols to help round up 47 undocumented persons on assorted charges in the Phoenix area, according to a March 19 statement by Sheriff Joe Arpaio, On the political front, the Arizona House of Representatives is considering legislation that would make it a criminal offense for an undocumented person to be in the state.
Nationally, the March for America demonstration in Washington, the largest pro-immigration reform demonstration in the US since the mass mobilizations of 2006, turned up the heat on politicians.
Demanding legalization for undocumented workers and the defense of family unity, demonstrators came from New Mexico and more than other 40 states to build support for their cause. Prior to the big March 21 rally, a leader of the Somos un Pueblo organization of Santa Fe, New Mexico, summed up the
mood among immigrants and their supporters.
“Congress’ refusal to tackle immigration reform is taking a toll on our families and the economy,” said Somos board member Rosario Dunning.
“Deportations increased significantly during the first year of the Obama administration, and we are tired of seeing our families torn apart.”
With Congressional elections coming up later in the year, Democrats, who owe a significant part of their 2008 victory to immigrant and ethnic voters, are under increasing pressure to turn campaign pledges into realities.
“We need a reform,” said Miami resident Emiles Jimenez during the Washington demonstration. “If there is no legalization, there will be no reelection in 2012.”
President Obama seemed to get the message. Appearing by video at the Washington rally, Obama promised to do “everything in my power” to get a bipartisan immigration reform bill passed within the year.
But Obama’s desires for a bipartisan immigration bill were chilled and perhaps frozen even before they were announced to the multitude in Washington. Shortly before the House passed its health insurance bill on March 21, Senator Graham, the co-sponsor of last week’s new immigration reform blueprint and virtually the only Republican senator to support overhauling the law at this juncture, linked the short-term fate of immigration reform to the pending Congressional action on health care.
“The first casualty of the Democratic health care bill will be immigration reform,” Graham said. “If the health care bill goes through this weekend, that will, in my view, pretty much kill any chance of immigration reform passing the Senate this year.”
Across the border in Mexico, the resurfacing of the immigration debate in US politics is stirring renewed interest in the issue. In a column, veteran politician and lawmaker Porfirio Munoz Ledo observed that the prospects for a politically difficult immigration reform come after the crash of the Washington Consensus, or the system of unfettered free market economics that shaped migratory patterns and other relations between the US and Mexico for the past several decades.
Washington and Mexico City, Munoz wrote, are trapped in a failed paradigm without any immediate alternative. Wrote Munoz: “There is difficulty in recognizing that the free trade agreement was the privileged instrument of the Consensus, which has vanished, and because of this we are obligated to
find different bases for the bilateral relationship and regional methods for combating the problems.”
Additional sources: NPR, March 21, 2010. CNN, March 21, 2010. Frontera/SUN, March 21, 2010. El Universal, March 20 and 21, 2010.Articles by Porfirio Munoz Ledo and Notimex. Latimes.com, March 21, 2010. Article by Clement Tan and Don Lee. Reuters, March 21, 2010. Article by Nancy Waitz and editorial staff. La Jornada, March 19, 2010. Semanario (Albuquerque), March 18, 2010. KUNM-FM (Albuquerque), March 18, 2010. El Diario de Juarez, March 12, 2010. Againstamnesty.org
Frontera NorteSur (FNS): on-line, U.S.-Mexico border news Center for Latin American and Border Studies New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico
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User Comments
Now Disillusioned on Mar 23, 2010 at 13:32:54 said:
Of course it is inevitable someone suggests “amnesty”, but amnesty is inherently unfair- especially to Asians (who historically were excluded from immigration), Africans, and Eastern and Western Europeans.
This is because the United States has a “worldwide limit” to the number of immigrant visas (or green cards) each year. The worldwide total U.S. visas for family sponsored cases is about 226,000 a year, and for employment based cases it is about 140,000.
More people apply than there are yearly visas available. As a result there is a visa shortage and U.S. State Department set up a waiting list of people. This list is in Priority Date order. The Priority Date is the date the immigration petition was received by the USCIS.
There are tens of thousands of law abiding people on the Priority Date list some waiting one or two decades to come.
Amnesty as proposed under the last McCain Feingold attempt (summer 2007) would not address these patient law abiding people- instead it gives preference to those who would not wait and turned a blind-eye to our laws.
A good example of how this is unfair is the last amnesty known as Section 245(i) of the Immigration Act (see immigration statistics at www.dhs.gov - amnesty: provisions primarily benefited Latin America. Could it be an effort to catholicize the U.S.?..maybe not a bad thing) and as the visas were charged against the worldwide limit, it resulted “retrogression” –moving backward on the Priority Date list- for the patient law abiding people waiting in line.
Disillusioned on Mar 23, 2010 at 12:42:50 said:
Of course it is inevitable “amnesty” is suggested to address the problem, but amnesty is inherently unfair- especially to Asians (who historically were excluded from immigration), Africans, and Eastern and Western Europeans.
This is because the United States has a “worldwide limit” to the number of immigrant visas (or green cards) each year. The worldwide total U.S. visas for family sponsored cases is about 226,000 a year, and for employment based cases it is about 140,000.
More people apply than there are yearly visas available. As a result there is a visa shortage and U.S. State Department set up a waiting list of people. This list is in Priority Date order. The Priority Date is the date the immigration petition was received by the USCIS.
There are tens of thousands of law abiding people on the Priority Date list some waiting one or two decades to come.
Amnesty as proposed under the last McCain Feingold attempt (summer 2007) would not address these patient law abiding people- instead it gives preference to those who would not wait and turned a blind-eye to our laws.
A good example of how this is unfair is the last amnesty known as Section 245(i) of the Immigration Act (see statistics: a provision primarily benefited Latin America) and as the visas were charged against the worldwide limit, it resulted “retrogression” –moving backward on the Priority Date list- for the patient law abiding people waiting in line.
Estoban on Mar 23, 2010 at 11:56:44 said:
At the weekend march I saw large flags of many other nations being flown, covering American flags, even red flags with hammers and cycles. The American flag was flown upside down by some, dragged in the dirt, walked on and used as a towel. The National Anthem was booed by some. Signs calling for revolution were carried. Signs calling the two parties racist and facist. Some people claimed that there was no Texas, Arizona or California. It was an enthusiastic crowd, buta lot ofangry hate was aimed at America and Americans.
America generously allows a million LEGAL IMMIGRANTS in each year. We are a target for the scofflaws of all nations that come as ILLEGAL ALIENS, such as the Russian Mafia, Salvadoran MS-13 and the 9/11 terrorists. Most LEGAL IMMIGRANTS and ILLEGAL ALIENS come from Mexico.
In the last 15 years millions of legal immigrants from Mexico have followed their dream to America. They respect our laws, culture, freedom, opportunity and people. They have gladly submitted to extensive criminal background checks and health checks. They have paid $1,000s in fees, proven financial responsibility, agreed to not be a financial burden on our nation, learned English and waited patiently to become citizens of the U.S. and pledge their allegiance to our nation. They are honest, have integrity and good character and are welcome additions to our community.
During the same time millions more have come from Mexico illegally to make more money. They have overstayed visas and stolen across our borders like sneak thieves, disrespecting our laws, culture and citizens. They are anarchists, further breaking our laws by using stolen Social Security numbers, fraudulent identity documents, driving without valid licenses or insurance, lying on I-9 forms and taking American jobs in an unholy alliance with criminal employers. They suck services and tax dollars from our economy and could care less about the very real and very extensive economic damage they have caused to American workers through lost jobs and reduced wages. They are dishonest with poor integrity and tarnished character. They have proven themselves to be unworthy of the most valuable citizenship in the world.
Nathan on Mar 22, 2010 at 22:41:40 said:
\"Quickly responding to Schumer-Graham, the American Civil Liberties Union criticized the blueprint’s endorsement of a “new and expensive” electronic employment verification system. According to the ACLU, the senators’ proposal for biometric worker identification is a “thinly-disguised” attempt to implement a national ID.\"
I\'ll start by saying I\'m not a member of the ACLU or neccessarily much a fan of them.
However, I am following emerging technologies and I came across the below video on YouTube that was created by the ACLU in 2006. It\'s about a guy ordering a pizza after the biometric ID system is in place. It\'s a couple minutes long and humorous but pretty damn scary and accurate in the way our technology is headed.
There is one question that stands out in it:
\"How do you know all this?\"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNJl9EEcsoE
Techology can be ABUSED when it comes to a persons identity. The creation of a biometric ID would be an abusion of technology on a national scale.
Aline on Mar 22, 2010 at 21:48:07 said:
So many ignorant people...talking about "illegals" like they're animals...Just so you know, there are PLENTY of American people that have free care, welfare, get paid under the table, and have countless amounts of kids they can't care for. I know this cuz I work with young children and their families under a goverment based agency.
And another thing - you all keep talking about how this is "our" country and "we" this or "our" that...when are you all going to realize that we don't control anything? You don't know if you'll be alive tomorrow morning...if nature decides to go crazy and the USA has a giant earthquake that takes us all down no one will have any say about whether or not something is "ours"...Quit being so judgmental, self-righteous and heartless.
Lastly, immigration reform indicates change in how immigration is dealt with, it doesn't necessarily mean everyone that is illegal is going to be able to stay here or walk in here like they "own the place" (as many of you seem to think). I don't believe every illegal alien should automatically get a greencard, but I believe that the people who have paid taxes while living here and who aren't in trouble with the law other than their way of entering the country should be given the chance to right their wrongs, stay with their families and live normal, un-persecuted lives.
For those of you who don't know how to speak English well enough to type correctly, maybe you should master your own language before you worry about Spanish becoming the official language of this country.
Maira on Mar 22, 2010 at 20:56:33 said:
How does someone even dare say that we are One Nation under God.We were founded with christian values, that does not mean things continues that way.God does not agree with this, he has called us to love each other,and really you want to call illegals criminals, my gosh I'm sure that we have more Americans(US CITIZENS) that have done bigger crimes such as killing and rapping, than trying to feed your family as immigrants do.And why do you think that the highest levels of divorce come from americans? Sadly we are no longer one nation under God..I feel ashamed of how dumb some people sound here, its completly uncalled for..Reality is that americans like easy jobs, but Latinos like busting their butts to know that we have provided or daily bread to our children..in conclusion I would like to add, for I am a US Citizen born from legalized latino parents,that if we want to talk about something that is illegal,that would probably be all those american men that have kids dont pay child support and on top of all that are in jail half of the time,and that comes from our tax money..what makes you better Mr..One Nation under God?
Frank Torres on Mar 22, 2010 at 18:30:40 said:
This goverment has to do something about this problem and fast this illegals come hear and not only takes jobs they also ruin peoples lives they take what ever they want and do what they whant and they don't care who they hurt. Some illigal stold my identity and know i work in 9 diffrent state at the same time now I.R.S whant me to pay taxes for 8 diffrent state that thous piece of crap illigals has done to me YES I AGREE SEND THEM ALL BACK WITH A BOOT IN THER A**
Frank Torres on Mar 22, 2010 at 17:56:45 said:
This goverment has to do something about this problem and fast this illegals come hear and not only takes jobs they also ruin peoples lives they take what ever they want and do what they whant and they don't care who they hurt. Some illigal stold my identity and know i work in 9 diffrent state at the same time now I.R.S whant me to pay taxes for 8 diffrent state that thous piece of crap illigals has done to me YES I AGREE SEND THEM ALL BACK WITH A BOOT IN THER A**
Cyndi Owenby on Mar 22, 2010 at 17:20:23 said:
First of all, it seems to me that no one that has commented here knows anything about the illegal immigrants...They cant get help at all from the government, that includes social security, medicaid, wic and for all your information, they DO pay taxes...taxes are taken from their checks just like ours, the only difference is, they cant claim their taxes and get refunds so the government keeps that money...as far as the children are concerned, they are born here so they are automatically citizens of the UNITED STATES and you cant send them anywhere...as far as taking our jobs, you people are absurd!!!! if you are working they cant come in and just take a job from you, the only reason they are working is because YOU WONT!!!!! before you bash someone, get your facts together and stop looking like complete idiots!!!
Cyndi Owenby on Mar 22, 2010 at 17:14:24 said:
First of all, it seems to me that no one that has commented here knows anything about the illegal immigrants...They cant get help at all from the government, that includes social security, medicaid, wic and for all your information, they DO pay taxes...taxes are taken from their checks just like ours, the only difference is, they cant claim their taxes and get refunds so the government keeps that money...as far as the children are concerned, they are born here so they are automatically citizens of the UNITED STATES and you cant send them anywhere...as far as taking our jobs, you people are absurd!!!! if you are working they cant come in and just take a job from you, the only reason they are working is because YOU WONT!!!!! before you bash someone, get your facts together and stop looking like complete idiots!!!
Dave Francis on Mar 22, 2010 at 16:20:53 said:
An Amnesty for illegal immigrants, will do several things that will cost a trillion dollars more for American taxpayers.
1. The illegal immigration rush to the border will never be stopped.
2. Millions more will be ready to run the US Border Patrol gauntlet, before the final act is signed.
3. It means literary-FAMILY UNIFICATION-, so those already here will be able to bring in their immediate family members. That means a rough calculation 3 extra people, (Just a minimum number) could mean another 100 million people, adding to at the least 20 to 30 million already settled here.
4. People will be waiting expectantly for a third AMNESTY.
5. Millions more pregnant females from all across the world, will try and sneak into America before the baby is born. This means that the whole family can move in, which is extra people to the welfare lines.
6. The Border states already overrun with illegal immigrants, wont have to wait for another earthquake? California will be sinking under the behemoth volume of foreign nationals pouring into the financially floundering state. Therefore it will become a third world cesspool.
7. The highways will become deathtraps--not that they are not already?
8. Our depreciating infrastructure will decline even more, as there will be even less money to pay for it.
9. Welfare rolls will soar to a unsustainable heights.
10. E-Verify, 287 G, Ice Raids, No Match Letter (Real ID Act & Save Act) would become obsolete.
11. Spanish will become the predominant language in border states.
12. Violence will erupt on a massive scale across the country, that could lead to unrest and riots.
13 Could even lead to a Second Civil War?
14. The only way to justify another AMNESTY is a nationwide referendum. LET THE PEOPLE DECIDE.
ONE FLAG-ONE LANGUAGE-ONE NATION. REMEMBER ILLEGAL ALIENS DO VOTE IN ELECTIONS.
Dave Francis on Mar 22, 2010 at 16:18:48 said:
Its hardly not surprising that people don't realize the ramifications of another AMNESTY? Even if it was true that their were only 11 million illegal immigrants in this nation? (The true number is somewhere between 20 and 30 million) The catch 22 is that once granted Amnesty and those legitimized they can then sponsor immediate family members. Since 1965, between 50 and 70 percent of U.S. immigrant visas distributed yearly have been allotted to close family members of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents.One of the reasons is chain migration. In chain migration, one immigrant sponsors several other immigrants for admission, who then sponsor several others themselves,multiply, duplicating and and on. Chain migration happens because present U.S. immigration policy is based on the principle of broadly defined family reunification; immigrants are able to sponsor their relatives back home to be admitted as immigrants here.
The illegal aliens given amnesty by Congress in 1986 (The Simpson-Mazzoli Bill) are now fueling naturalization in huge record numbers. (Americas population is around 315 million.) If AMNESTY is forced through in 2010 former illegal aliens become citizens, all of their immediate relatives qualify to depart immediately to the United States, and start new migration chains of their own. The U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform (USCIR) studied the issue of chain migration and proposed limiting family-sponsored immigration to only the spouse and minor children of a U.S. citizen or a legal permanent resident (LPR) and the parents of a U.S. citizen (AS LONG AS THEY ARE SUPPORTED BY A SPONSOR. So even if it was true there were only 11 million illegal aliens in the country, they majority could sponsor close family members. But the truth is, once here the sponsorship is ignored) and millions of family members have to rely on welfare to exist?
Older family members, the sick, disabled who have never paid into Social Security, can receive Supplemental Security Income (SSI) Just multiply the numbers of new immigrants that can be sponsored. Somewhere around 60 to 70 million new faces, that taxpayers in most cases will eventually have to support? A FACT: Accordingly Dr. Madeleine Pelner Cosma, stated in a report that the increased the annual anchor baby birth estimate to 300,000-350,000, that you as a taxpayer support. However the whole family gets in on the act with food stamps, section 8 housing and other money generating welfare programs. This is just another incredulous financial impact, that taxpayers will have to pay for?.DIMINISHING RESOURCES, CROWDED HIGHWAYS, FAILING INFRASTRUCTURE, OVERPOPULATION GROWTH are just part of our immediate future. Learn more about these issues that taxpayers will have to contend with at NUMBERSUSA.Dot.Com
Javier Alvarez on Mar 22, 2010 at 15:16:54 said:
I"v been reading all of your comments I guess you poeple didnt go to school very long because you all can,t even spell. I think when you get up in the morning & drink your orange juice you should thank them poeple for pickin the oranges. something maybe ya"ll dont know anything about.. It"s called WORK!!!!!
Javier Alvarez on Mar 22, 2010 at 15:01:08 said:
Well Lawrence the only people that are bankrupting our econamy are poeple like you!! Arogannt and to damn lazy to do manual laber. If i recall history your the ones that had to come across on a boat to this continent. Go to school learn your history dumass!!!!!!!
Chris Payne on Mar 22, 2010 at 14:57:27 said:
I believe we are one nation under God.Why are we not able in our country to live like we use to? Send them all back,kids incloulded.They come over to our country,take our Jobs our land ,try to make us learn there laguage and say we owe them something.I say send them back send them all back to where ever they came from.Or face a fireing squaode in witch they go back dead.
Don P. Young on Mar 22, 2010 at 14:51:33 said:
No one should be allowed to come over, to work, live etc. without them being sponsoed by a U.S. Citizen and they would be responsible for the people they sponsor and if they get into trouble while here the sponsors would be fined and pay for anything damages etc. they cause. For the ones already here send them all back and make them come in legally and by being sponsored by a U.S.Citizen or Group. Anyone caught breaking the law would automatically be deported and their sponsor go to jail. Also they should all have background checks to make sure no criminals are being brought in. This country is to lienent on illegals. What other country lets them get in without jail time or immediate deportation or maybe even shot.
While working they should pay taxes just like the rest of us and no freebies.
Ralph Kelly on Mar 22, 2010 at 14:50:46 said:
"As presented, the Schumer-Graham framework emphasizes more border security, a guest worker program, the expansion of the controversial E-Verify employment eligibility system, the introduction of a biometric Social Security card, and a “tough but fair” path to legalization for undocumented residents."
And Schumer probably has some swampland in Florida, he will sell you. He was heavily involved in the immigration amnesty fiasco of 1986. Employer sanctions were promised as a "cornerstone" of that immigration act. Fines so certain and high that no unscrupulous business hiring illegal aliens would bef able to stay in business. And we are supposed to believe his gabage this time. No amnesty? No way! Remember 1986! Shamnesty is not in the cards. Enforcement frist and then come back and see me in about ten years.
Clemdane on Mar 22, 2010 at 14:39:30 said:
Since when does "reform" mean giving everyone amnesty?
l00ker on Mar 22, 2010 at 13:33:14 said:
Oh it's wartime you can best believe, and the bullets haven't even started flying yet.
Ali on Mar 22, 2010 at 13:20:46 said:
It really doesn't matter what the bills contain. If they contain AMNESTY by any name, they aren't going anywhere.
Lawrence Carter on Mar 22, 2010 at 13:16:32 said:
Send the illegals back.We are overpopulated.Birth control and limiting our population has to be enforced.Human encroachment and habitat destruction increases with the illegals as they help destroy our natural world/wildlife,etc....Send them all back.They breed like rats and bankrupt our economy.NO TO THEIR CHILDREN BECOMING CITIZENS.SEND THEM BACK OR WE THE TRUE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL SEND THEM BACK.THEIR DAY OF GOING BACK IS COMING SOONER THAN THEY THINK
Lawrence Carter on Mar 22, 2010 at 13:15:38 said:
Send the illegals back.We are overpopulated.Birtn control and limiting our population has to be enforced.Human encroachment and habitat destruction increases with the illegals as they help destroy our natural world/wildlife,etc....Send them all back.They breed like rats and bankrup our economy.NO TO THEIR CHILDREN BECOMING CITIZENS.SEND THEM BACK OR WE THE TRUE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL SEND THEM BACK.THEIR DAY OF GOING BACK IS COMING SOONER THAN THEY THINK
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