Iran Awakening -- An Interview With Shirin Ebadi

New America Media, Q&A, Brian Shott Posted: May 20, 2006

Editor's Note: Human rights champion Shirin Ebadi talks about censorship, women's rights and the dual role of her Tehran bodyguards. Ebadi was an accomplished female jurist in Iran in the 1970s; after the 1979 Islamic Revolution she was demoted to clerk in the courtroom she once presided over. Today she is a lawyer in Tehran and the author of "Iran Awakening: A Memoir of Revolution and Hope" (Random House, 2006, with Azadeh Moaveni). In 2003, Ebadi became the first Iranian and the first Muslim woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize. Recently, with six other female Nobel winners, she created the Women's Nobel Prize Initiative, a nonprofit based in Canada that works for women's rights internationally. On a recent trip to San Francisco, Ebadi spoke with New America Media editor Brian Shott. Her translator was Banafsheh Keynoush.

In the year 2000, as you researched the murders of intellectuals in Iran, you found a government hit list with your name on it. Today you're a Nobel Prize winner living in Tehran with bodyguards supplied by the state. I don't understand your present relationship with the Iranian government.

You have to understand that bodyguards have two responsibilities. One may be protection, but the other is to follow my moves completely. They've told me themselves that every day they report to the police about me. The best way to control me in Iran is to give me bodyguards.

Do you have more freedom of speech than most Iranians, especially when you travel outside Iran?

There is very little freedom of speech in Iran. A number of our journalists and writers are currently in jail. So naturally, whoever leaves Iran immediately has more freedom of speech. I want to stress, however, that there are a lot of brave people in Iran. Although they know that the punishment for talking could be going to prison, they still speak their minds and go to prison.
Shirin Ebadi

As it turns out, publishing your book in the United States was a struggle because of U.S. laws.

Yes, exactly. I was told that because the U.S. has economic sanctions against Iran, I could not publish my book, since the proceeds would go to me, and thus to Iran since I live there. I argued that cultural exchanges should be excluded from economic sanctions, and that by refusing to publish my book here, you are actually imposing censorship on the American people.

You write in your book that "Reza Shah was the first, but not the last Iranian ruler to act out a political agenda on the frontier of women's bodies."

Reza Shah, who was very eager to move Iran toward modernity, ordered women to unveil. But you cannot forcefully tell women to unveil in an Islamic society. Reza Shah did not believe in two important principles of modernity, which are democracy and freedom.

Unfortunately, he was not the last of leaders to pursue his political agenda based on women's issues. When the Islamic revolution happened, the first political manifestation of it was the forceful veiling of women.

Women are making huge gains in the professions in Iran -- sometimes outpacing women in the United States -- and yet there are laws that severely restrict women's public life and legal rights. How should Westerners understand that?

In my memoir, I wanted to introduce American women to Iranian women and our lives. I'm not from the highest echelons of society, nor the lowest. I'm a women who is a lawyer, who is a professor at a university, who won the Nobel Peace Prize. At the same time, I cook. And even when I'm about to go to prison, one of the first things I do is to make enough food and put it in the fridge for my family.

What do Iranian women have to say about the role of women in Islam?

They are trying to show the world that it is possible to be Muslim and modern. That it is possible to be Muslim and to believe in the equality of rights between men and women.

You push for women's rights in Iran from within an Islamic framework. Would you prefer a secular Iran?

First, when you say secular it does not mean that you are against religion. Secular means the separation of religion from the state. I personally might believe in secularism. But society must first take on and accept the concept. If a society is not interested in separating the state from religion, what are we to do? It is then that we have to say that religion is not against justice. And then to be able to prove that through religious principles.

How does your faith help you in your work?

When you believe in the righteousness of your path, you take firmer steps. At the same time, being a Muslim and believing in God, I gain more strength as well.

Were you surprised by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's victory last year?

A large number of people didn't actually vote. The right in Iran has always had about 15 percent of the vote. Therefore, it was expected that he might win.

What effect will he have on the struggle for women's rights in Iran?

Mr. Ahmadinejad does not believe in the equality of rights between men and women. He's actually said that a couple of times in his talks and speeches. He has a traditional view of women's rights. But he cannot actually reverse the rights that women have achieved, because the feminist movement inside Iran is very strong. Women will resist any attempt to reverse their rights.

After Israel, Iran has the largest community of Jews in the Middle East. How did Iranian Jews react to Ahmadinejad's questioning of the Holocaust, or his remarks about wiping Israel off the map?

It's natural that the Jewish community in Iran and anywhere else in the world did not like what they heard from him. Just as large numbers of Muslims didn't like what they heard. The Holocaust was a sad event in history, and cannot be denied. And you cannot eliminate Israel. Rather than talking of the elimination of Israel, it would have been better if the president had talked about the rights of the Palestinians. As long as the governments of Israel and Palestine do not reconcile, there will be no peace in the Middle East.

Has President Bush helped or hurt reform efforts in Iran?

Mr. Bush has done nothing to help reforms in Iran. And when he threatens Iran with a military attack, he actually gives the Iranian government an excuse to crack down on freedom seekers, under the guise of national security.

What are a few things Americans should know about their country's role in Iran in the last 50 or 60 years?

Saddam fought with Iran for eight years and used chemical weapons against Iran. At the time, he was a friend of the United States. Mr. Rumsfeld met with Saddam, shook hands with him. And then later, the U.S. attacked Iraq, under the pretext that Saddam was a dictator.

In the summer of 1951, the U.S. sent the CIA into Iran to overthrow a popular prime minister, Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh.

By mentioning these two instances, I do not wish to say that we have to hold grudges against each other. It is time to forget the past. The people of Iran should forget these things, and the American people should forget the hostage taking. We have to resolve our differences through negotiations.

What gives you the most hope for better relations between the U.S. and Iran?

There are more than 2 million Iranians in the United States. They are good citizens, highly educated and wealthy. Our young people in Iran always dream to pursue their higher education in the U.S. It's the governments that have their differences. The people of Iran and the United States want to be friends.

In your book you seem to be angry at people who left Iran either to pursue economic opportunity or because of fears for their safety.

Certainly everyone is free to choose where they want to live. Life in Iran is very difficult. I agree that in Europe and the United States there is more to enjoy, better opportunities. But let me give you an example. If your mother who is old gets sick, do you leave her on the corner of the street? And then try and find yourself a younger mother? Or would you try to help your old, sick mother to improve and feel better?

Your nation, your homeland, to me is like a mother. When my homeland faces difficulties, I do not allow myself to leave it.


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