User Comments

BC on Feb 11, 2009 at 12:06:44 said:

Richter - you are so judgemental! My Family was living in what is now the USA before there was a USA so your comments in German are completely unintelligable to me. Is it an attempt at verbal abuse? I do speak Pu Tong Hua if you insist on using a language other than English. Xie Xie.

birdsongslaw on Feb 08, 2009 at 16:25:08 said:

Birdsong teaches immigration law at Barry University School of Law. Birdsong does not believe that there will be comprehensive immigration reform for at least another 4 years. The Obama administration needs this first 4 years to get the country out of our economic and financial mess. If Obama can do that he will be given a second 4 year term and the political capital to accomplish comprehensive immigration reform.

Richter on Feb 08, 2009 at 14:53:23 said:

BC - Yes, your insults are typical of Verzogerter Rassist. You don't know anything about me and yet you open your filthy mouth. You and your ignorant attitude give Germans a bad name. Haben Sie Geschlecht mit Ihrem fuhrer

BC on Feb 06, 2009 at 08:32:47 said:

Richter and Ignacio

To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine

Since reason has left your side of the discussion it is time for me to leave also. Have a nice life!

BC on Feb 06, 2009 at 08:23:25 said:

Richter and Ignacio - Your true natures have been revealed.

Richter, your talk about "my workers" and construction tells me that you are a Contractor. That makes you a member of the Illegal Immigrant Profiteers club. My Father was a Shop Steward so I know all the dirty tricks Contractors can play. Especially when they involve the exploitation of Illegal Workers and the use of excessive immigration to create a pool of unemployed people so they can drive down wages to make more money. Many Union Construction Workers think that Contractors make George Bush and Dick Cheney look like far left liberals.

Ignacio - You do not persuade anyone outside your little cloister of true believers by answering every point with "you are nothing but a secret racist". That is the answer of someone who either has no answer to the truth or has a secret agenda and does not want it revealed. Could it be you are just in this for the political power? A chance to stick it to someone or some group? Your callus attitude about those Citizens who get their hands dirty for a living tells me that you could care less about the American Worker – unless he or she is Hispanic. Let me give you some advice. Webster's definition of Racism is: "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race". You really should reexamine some of your comments in light of this, especially those about family. All people of all races have families and love them. And so far, one in every 40 American families has someone unemployed thanks to Illegal Immigration. Also, be careful you do not become a charter member of the "Hate the Hate Group" Hate Group, so twisted with hate for Hate Groups that you see hateful bigots under every bed and hateful racists hiding in every closet. Hater haters think they are so much better than non-Haters because they hate for good. But in fact, Hater haters are just haters by a different name.

It is too bad neither of you wants to discuss the real facts of Illegal Immigration and its effect on the USA. We did not even get to discuss the fact that our population explosion thanks to Illegal Immigration has pushed our water systems to the brink of collapse all across the Southwest, Lower Great Plains, and the Southeast. Count the Salton Sea amongst the latest victims. Or the fact that Illegal Immigration has chewed up farmland for development that used to feed as many as two million people. What a shame.

Richter on Feb 06, 2009 at 06:11:06 said:

BC - I understand Nazi perfectly. I understand your attitude perfectly. If you don't support Nazi attitude, then state it. I read your posts and you have problems, you should see psychiatrist. I know many German-Americans who work construction. They're not ashamed, I think maybe you ashamed of your father. But I bet he is okay working construction. Many people work construction, it is very honorable work. Right now many people out of work in construction field, not just US Citizens. My workers now number 10 from 40, due to recession, not illegal immigrants. If you think illegal immigrant took your job, then go take your job back. Stop Whining!

Richter on Feb 06, 2009 at 06:08:21 said:

BC - I understand Nazi perfectly. I understand your attitude perfectly. If you don't support Nazi attitude, then state it. I read your posts and you have problems, you should see psychiatrist. I know many German-Americans who work construction. They're not ashamed, I think maybe you ashamed of your father. But I bet he is okay working construction. Many people work construction, it is very honorable work. Right now many people out of work in construction field, not just US Citizens. My workers now number 10 from 40, due to recession, not illegal immigrants. If you think illegal immigrant took your job, then go take your job back. Stop Whining!

Ignacio on Feb 05, 2009 at 22:05:19 said:

BC, you say my brand of hate, but it is you who has problems. You hate immigrants, legal and illegal, you hate Danes (maybe Danishes also), you obviously hate yourself and resent your German background. You don't belong in the United States, the Constitution clearly states "All Men Are Created Equal." Though you don't think it applies to you. People (and I'm being generous) like you are the reason there can't be a serious discussion on immigration. You are so extreme. You behave like a dam princess who should always get her way. I'm done with you.

BC on Feb 05, 2009 at 08:00:56 said:

Ignacio - You can spew your brand of hate all day long. You can twist my words all you want and try to paint everyone who disagrees with you as anti-Hispanic. It changes nothing. All it proves is that anyone can twist reality into any form they like and then try to use it for character assassination to intimidate those who disagree.

You state in your latest tirade that Hispanic People so love family, whether here or outside the USA. Yet you do not care that Illegal Immigration kills the development that would solve the Illegal Immigrant problem for said “family”. In the past, when the USA had more jobs than there were workers, excess jobs were exported to other countries. A few decades ago that resulted in the economic development of Korea, Taiwan, and the other economic powers of the Pacific called the “Four Tigers”. At no point did their development make the USA economically weak. While USA economic expansion made those countries strong.

Let’s use Mexico as an example. Per the Pew Hispanic Center six million Mexicans have illegally immigrated to the USA, over three million of which are working. Per the CIA World Fact Book the 2006 GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of Mexico was $741.5 billion and the Labor Force numbered 38 million. That means that the average GDP per working person was $19,513. If the USA had exported three million jobs to Mexico and paid the average GDP rate (a mere $9.38/hr.) and the six million illegal immigrants would have stayed home, we would have pumped $59 billion in wages into the Mexican economy. In the USA economy approximately 57% of our GDP is made up of wages. Wages generate business, which in turn generates more wages, which in turn generate more business. Assuming this same job multiplier for Mexico means that an additional $59 billion in wages added to the Mexican economy would increase the GDP of Mexico by more that $103 billion or 14%. And the GDP of the USA would increase as well with repatriated profits.

But instead, greedy people want a continued source of cheap labor and like true misers they what to keep economic development in their own backyard while denying it to other countries. This dooms countries south of our border to being nothing more than a continued source of cheap labor for the USA. Every time a person chooses to support Illegal Immigration they support this system. Unfortunately it also leads one to believe that the only “brothers and sisters” Illegal Immigrant supporters really care about are those who are dishonest enough to milk the system for all they can get. What is better? Helping a few million people who chose to break the law or the 100 million plus people living south of our border in poor economic conditions?

I have faith in the countries south of the United States considered to be "Hispanic" that they are trying to do their best to build societies worth living in. I will be sure to let them know that you disagree with me on that and that they are so worthless in your view that returning to them is as bad as death in a gas chamber. Where did you get such Negativity? How did you become such a pawn of the people who exploit labor for fun and profit? If you had faith the size of a mustard seed you would know that deported Illegal Immigrants are not going to their deaths nor are they going to Hades. If they learned anything during their time in the U.S. they will work and fight to make their future a bright one no matter where they live. And if they are smart people maybe someday they will re-write history in their own countries. Or maybe they will just sit down and whine the rest of their lives. If you believe God truly has a plan for each and every one of us, in the end it is arrogance to assume that if you do not get your way it is a bad thing. And if you do not believe in God it is still the height of arrogance to believe that only you know what is right. And is it not Megalomania for someone to believe that they are be all and end all of morality? I thought omnipotence was only attributable to God.

Ignacio on Feb 04, 2009 at 21:11:33 said:

BC - Still, your comments do not make any sense. First you do not hate Hispanics, yet you support laws which separate our families. American-Mexicans and Mexicans are intricately interlaced. Some of our families have been here for several centuries, and some of our families have not. We marry US Citizens and immigrants, some of them undocumented, almost every Hispanic family is related to an undocumented at some level. When ICE separates our families, they condemn our children to poverty and malfunction. Your hate must run much deeper than you dare mention, since a Hispanic family saved you and yet you wish them evil.

And at the risk of sarcasm. "The Danes are Coming." I think they would have come to the US under H1B visas, so they would be legal immigrants, whom you happen to hate also. It is only racism against the Germans that you are concerned with. The Hispanic family helped you out, but you repay with hate. I think you're one of the bad Germans.

I asked you to give your stand and you didn't answer. No answer at all is still an answer, maybe the answer you dared not speak.

BC on Feb 04, 2009 at 12:56:49 said:

Ignacio – Nice try. You equate Illegal Immigrants with what you call “Brown People” and then all your logic flows from that. But Illegal Immigrants (or if you prefer the precise, legal definition “Illegal Aliens Residing in the United States”) is neither a Race nor a Religion nor even a Political Party. In fact, Illegal Immigrants span all races, creeds and political alignment. And the simple act of returning someone to their country of origin is not in any way comparable to the gassing of Jews or the slave labor imposed on minority peoples during World War II, pre-US Civil War, during Jim Crow, or anywhere else for that matter. Unless you are one of those “America is the greatest place on earth” bigots who believes that sending people to live elsewhere is the same as sending them to live in Hades.

If you are asking, would I stand up and try to stop someone who was mistreating someone because of their Race, Creed, or Political Beliefs the answer is yes, I ALREADY HAVE! And if you are asking do I hate people of Hispanic origin the answer in NO. In fact I was rescued by someone of Hispanic origin when my family and I were thrown out on the street because of my national origin. So my own personal experience with people of Hispanic origin has been nothing but positive.

But there are considerations here that have nothing to do with race, creed, or political allegiance. But you seem to be so wrapped up in the Hispanic versus everyone else aspect of it you cannot seem to see it. My father was for many years a construction worker. From personal experience I know that the treatment of those who get their hands dirty for a living by people who do not is disgraceful. I believe someone here even said scornfully that if you were an American and worked in such a profession you were a failure and should go back to school and get more education.

The best way to illustrate to you the problem that unlimited immigration causes is to tell you a true story that happened years ago in my Father’s home town. In that town there was an auto plant. It was staffed by proud, hardworking German Americans and Italian Americans. One day the Owner decided that he had to make more money and so he fired all those workers and hired a bunch of workers he had recruited and imported from Denmark. There was nothing wrong with the workers he laid off other than they were very educated in the ways of America whereas the Danes he brought to the U.S. were quite ignorant of such things as workers rights and how much the cost of living was in the U.S.

His Danish workers were so unskilled quality suffered. As a result, his customers received a poorer product for the same price, while he happily added to his personal fortune.

His move not only hurt his ex-workers who did nothing more than ask for a fair days wage, it hurt the community by reducing the amount of money workers had to spend at local businesses. And it also caused a great deal of hatred toward the Danish workers that lasted for many years.

The Danes saw no reason why they shouldn’t come to town and take everyone’s jobs since they needed them, while the German American and Italian American workers saw the Danes as foreign “scab labor”. Who was right? If you are one of the fired workers you know that a gross injustice was just done to you. If you were one of the imported workers, you know that you were just granted a tremendous opportunity. Who was wrong? How can you tell somebody who just lost their job that they should welcome the person who took it from them into their community? Shouldn’t we all be mad at the business man? After all, look at all the heartache he caused in his community.

In economics there is no such thing as a "correct" price and there is no dictate that anything should be either less or more expensive. There is only a market force based balance between scarce and common resources. Common resources have a low price while scarce resources have a high price. Unlimited immigration makes labor a common resource and thus drives the price into the cellar. Since labor represents a standard of living, making it less expensive devalues everyone's standard of living. It is a consensus that this is a bad thing or we would not have minimum wage laws.

In order to solve this dilemma of a falling standard of living due to unlimited immigration, Congress over the years clearly defined right and wrong. We have decided as a society that U.S. jobs are for U.S. Citizens and Legal Residents. By extension, we have decided to put an end to allowing employers to replace employees with lower paid unlimited Immigrant labor. If a job cannot be filled with a U.S. Citizen or Legal Resident, then there is a process by which somebody from outside the U.S. can be brought in to fill that position at a fair wage. One can say that Immigration law over the last 100 years has been an attempt to control labor markets so as to prevent labor from becoming a cheap commodity due to unlimited immigration.

Unfortunately, for the last twenty years few people have bothering to enforce or abide by those laws so painstakingly developed. Meanwhile, even BEFORE this recession started, minority unemployment and youth unemployment had reached levels not seen since the great recession of 1982. All because of Illegal Immigration. We owe it to those Citizens of the U.S., people like my Father, who worked their fingers to the bone, only to see their pay spiral downwards as Illegal Immigrants flooded the Labor Markets driving wages down, IN VIOLATION OF OUR LAW, to send said Illegal Immigrants back to where they came from. If a thief steals something from you they go to jail. I someone illegally in the U.S. steals your standard of living or even your job, what do you think the punishment should be? Just sending them to their home country without fine or jail time seems pretty lenient to me. And to blame the company alone is to forget that it the Illegal Immigrant is a willing participant with free will.

Ignacio on Feb 03, 2009 at 22:19:29 said:

BC I don't contradict myself at all. If a law is unfair, then it must be overturned or disobeyed. Sometimes as it has been done all over the world, by civil disobedience, or outright defiance. We have had leaders disobey (i.e. Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Amelia Robinson, Dred Scott, Dionicio Morales, Chavez, et.al.), and many more who not only marched and demonstrated, but often paid with their freedom and/or life.

I was fortunate enough to meet some of them in person, and I admire their courage. My stance is very clear: I will stand with the oppressed and I will challenge any unfair law. Yes, that would have included standing against the Holocaust had I been alive then. And no, I did not forget about a great number of German people who risked their life in the defense of human life, who challenged the SS and Gestapo in order to save even a Jewish life. In fact, there were many attempts against Hitler's life during his coronation. For these people there was no variance of moral compass. Human life was always more important than laws.

If you are of German blood, and you complain of treatment you have received, I don't understand your attitude against the Hispanics. You stated you had been bothered by Hogan's Heroes, Kruger, yet you are quick to point out that now the "imperative" is "preventing an oversupply of Labor, protecting our environment from over-population, and stopping companies and individuals that entice immigration law breaking behavior."

I don't understand you. Are you for or against racism? Or is your moral compass only against Racism against Germans? Is Racism against the Brown people ok? Don't support my points and then try to contradict me.

One of my very dear friends. Right after WWII, upon coming back on shore was a white American-Mexican, who was a navy bus driver while on shore, drove a bunch of sailors to a restaurant where the blacks, American-Mexicans and American-Indian natives, were refused service and asked to leave, Well he refused to leave the restaurant until the police would come in and explain the reasons these sailors could not eat with the rest of the sailors who were risking their lives for the interest of America and really the world. Well, there was a huge altercation, 60 sailors were imprisioned (yes, all races), when he was asked to explain his actions the charges to all sailors were dismissed by his admiral (to his credit), all this a few years before Rosa Parks. I would have stood by his side, and you know what the law was then "No Blacks, No Mexicans allowed." What you have to ask yourself BC, is, Where would you have stood? Where would your moral compass drive you?

And if you wanna preach about democracy, what is the great deal? It is said that democracy is when two wolves and a chicken vote on what to have for dinner. Is this the democracy you believe in? That's not the democracy I want. I want my government to be benevolent, not violent; righteous, not right-wing. I want it to be faithful to the original intent of the Constitution, and not to have to justify our actions by "the letter of the law." If I insist on looking back at our history, it is because history repeats itself, and even now it is repeating. My brown skinned father (who only knows to be a peacenik) was threatened in Oklahoma City in 1978 by a group of white men. My uncle in Casper Wyoming, an American-Mexican friend of mine (of course she was a US citizen) was arrested in Cheyenne WY, because, according to the arresting officer, there was no way a person with such a heavy accent was a US citizen (16 year old female from Southern California in 1973).

So where is your moral compass BC? Is it with Kruger and the Illegal Aliens? Or is it with the good Germans who stood against the Nazi and broke the law?

BC on Feb 03, 2009 at 08:08:36 said:

Ignacio - You are a mixture of contradictions. You say "I've never advocated the breaking of fair laws" and then you go on to say "Immigration laws currently are irrational and should be changed" and you wrap it up by praising those who disregard "unfair laws". So now you get to be the person who defines what is fair and what is unfair? You get to be judge, jury, and executioner? Sounds like a 'Kangaroo' Court to me.

You miss the point of what our government is all about. All people have that which they call moral and immoral. And society has and that which they call legal and illegal. The two have nothing to do with each other unless you happen to agree with what the governing body that chooses to enshrine as legal and as illegal.

Since each person has a different definition of what is moral and immoral, unless you have some form of representative democracy legal and illegal is defined by the whim of those who govern. In a representative democracy, the consensus of the governed (usually the majority, but not always) through their representatives determine legal and illegal. What becomes law may be moral to some and immoral to others. Responsibility comes into the picture because in a representative democracy, laws you feel are morally just become law only if enough people agree. And laws you feel may be unjust may become law if enough people share an opposite viewpoint from what you feel is moral.

The grand bargain of a democracy is that you sometimes have to put up with laws you do not like in order to have the moral high ground on the enforcement of laws you do like. For instance, if our society through government defines Immigration into the U.S. without permission, dumping pollutants, hunting endangered species, robbery, and murder all as crimes and defines freedom of expression as a right then for you to expect dumping pollutants to be punished you have to also put up with Illegal Immigrants being punished. And if you expect to have free speech you also have to expect robbers to be jailed.

That does not mean that you should not try to change laws you do not like. It took 100 years to stamp out Jim Crow and its buddies. What that means is that if you cannot change them and you choose to ignore them then you have set a precedent and an example of how everyone else should ignore the laws you like or feel are justified. Intellectually ignoring laws you do not like sounds pretty fun – until someone steals something from you and law enforcement refuses to do anything about it because they think the offense is too trivial or could care less about what happens to you because they know you to be someone ignores other laws. Like the old Texas verdict of "not guilty because he deserved it". And before you start lecturing me about “moral imperatives” I would say any individual can come up with any number of reasons why anything is a moral imperative. That is the nature of Humans. The only real moral imperative is that our laws cause as little injury as possible to the Citizens who enact them through their elected representatives and protect the Citizens from the effects of what has been determined to be a crime.

When it comes to enforcement of our current immigration laws the real moral imperatives for those against open borders are preventing an oversupply of Labor, protecting our environment from over-population, and stopping companies and individuals that entice immigration law breaking behavior for their own personal gain. Two decades of non-enforcement of the law on the part of our executive branch has created one heck of a mess. But you spend a lot of time complaining about how laws and treaties have been ignored in the past to the disadvantage of what you call "Brown People". There is no question that this is so. But what you seem to want is retribution or some kind of special dispensation today for what happened 65 to 150 or more years ago. Most of us were not even around then. Do we throw away King's dream that the people of the USA will "one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character"?

You go on to state that "Our Constitution is a living document and can be adapted" but then you follow it with "but most of them [Dictators] changed the law to fit their ideas so in a way they were eventually within the law, in fact, many of them were the law". So is that what you want? A living, changing Constitution that can be adopted and modified and grow when the next Dictator that comes along? Or maybe to turn the tables so you can foster retribution? The past is the past.

I heartily agree with you that for some people "Much of their rhetoric [is] meant to demonize people", "and yes, these times feel like the propaganda of the Nazi" but unlike you I see the hate coming from both sides. Try being of German descent. The vast majority of people of German descent have roots in America that go back too before 1880. Yet thanks to two World Wars and guys named Hitler (an Austrian) and Himmler we now get to endure a constant rendition of Hogan’s Heroes, Mass Murderers named Kruger and Meyers, blond haired villains with phony German style accents, and movies with caricature German bad guys everywhere you look. Not to mention the acts of outright discrimination perpetrated on Americans of German descent whose ancestors left Germany before it was even organized as one integrated nation. But hey - apparently you do not notice things like that unless it is directed at you. And of course you never have made any "German's rounding up Jews" comparisons to Illegal Immigration, right? So much for fighting hate.

Ignacio on Feb 02, 2009 at 23:17:00 said:

BC, if you're implying that I'm like Hitler, you're way off, and you are trying to create another lie, I guess the bigger the better. But I've never advocated the breaking of fair laws. If you want to start by demanding that laws be obeyed, start from the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the myriad treaties which were signed with the indian natives of this country. Do not imply that I'm advocating a group of people to be above the law. Immigration laws currently are irrational and should be changed. Our Constitution is a living document and can be adapted, it is not, and never was meant to be inflexible. Historically though, the US has chosen to legislate as it sees fit, usually without profound thinking, and usually unfavorably towards minorities. And if you hear some of the rhetoric from some of these bloggers, "Anchor Baby," "Illegal Alien," "Invaders." They decry racism behind the "letter of the law." Much of their rhetoric meant to demonize people. If you want to use logic to reach a reasonable conclusion do so, but do not ignore history, even if it's different for you than for the Hispanics in this country.

Do I have to bore you with the details of history after the signing of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, please study it, as the history is quite lengthy, however, the highlight is that much of this country grew on abusing the natives, American-Mexicans, and the letter of the law was not obeyed when it treated those fairly.

And yes, these times feel like the propaganda of the Nazi, the hate for the brown people (You've seen some call them uneducated, freeloaders, etc...) when I see a different truth. If someone plants hate, they will sow hate and then they'll complain about their Mexican neighbor who lives with 10 other Mexicans. I see the same with every race, everyone does it. They quote NumbersUSA and FAIR, and Jorge Borjas, as their ultimate all-knowing source for the "rule of law" and claim all should obey the law. Please... Some of these posters even hide behind hispanic sounding names, like anyone would call themselves HernandezUSA. Or as if an immigration agent would be blogging on this site. Others spew bogus statistics i.e. (Dave) 63% of Voters say gaining control of the border is more important than legalizing the status of undocumented workers in the country." I think the voters gave their opinion rightly when the bigot candidates only received a very small percentage of votes.

I've explained in other blogs that if the US had chosen a logical immigration strategy, we never would have reached a high of 20 million undocumented immigrants in this country. Even if the policy was reversed to the 80's policy, we should only have maybe 1.2 to 1.3 million undocumented immigrants who typically immigrate seasonally.

So who is telling the Big Lie then? I know Lou Dobbs is not telling the truth, and VDare is not, and NumbersUSA or FAIR are not. It is called propaganda and they try to hide it behind the "rule of the law" which is exactly what the Nazi did. The Brown people are painted as the enemy and criminals as the Jews were, and are currently being blamed for our economic downturn as the Jews were then; so what is the difference?

And you speak of dictators who see themselves as above the law, but most of them changed the law to fit their ideas so in a way they were eventually within the law, in fact, many of them were the law. And yet, many brave humans choose to risk their freedom and life to disregard Unfair laws.

Dave on Feb 02, 2009 at 18:27:05 said:

Very good post BC. As you illustrate, we are bombarded daily with MSM big lies regarding illegal immigration and the purposeful, conflating of two very different terms: immigrants and illegal aliens. Furthermore, instread of adequately covering the devasating economic and social costs of illegal immigration, the MSM continually churns out predictable sob stories about the plight of poor \"undocumented immigrants.\"

BC on Feb 02, 2009 at 10:38:59 said:

Richter and Ignacio - You play the Hitler card without really understanding what it means. All the worst Dictators in history had one thing in common and it wasn't racism, bigotry, or a desire to have laws enforced. It was a feeling of certainty that they were above the law and could do whatever they wanted. Sound familiar?

What was the first thing that Hitler did after he came to power? It was to burn the Reichstag so that the legislature could not argue with what Hitler thought should be done. Does this sound to you like something the people who call for the rule of law would do? I agree with you 100% that people should not engage in name calling and stereotyping. But to paint people who want our laws enforced as the next Hitler is not only stereotyping, it is also miss-casting.

History shows again and again that people who have no respect for the law or think that they know better than the law what should be done are the future Hitlers, Stalins, and Castros. The early Caesars were bound and determined to save Rome from itself by running it themselves so they ended the republic. And Genghis Khan could not tolerate those he could not control. He destroyed entire cities for the simple crime of not doing exactly what he told them too do. And Stalin pathologically murdered anyone who he perceived as having different ideas as to how things should be run because he thought he knew better. If any group in the U.S. is going to produce a new Hitler it is those who think that people should be above the law, not people who call for reasonable laws to be obeyed.

Hitler's favorite tactic to gain power was "the big lie". How is that different from such statements as "Illegal Immigrants are only doing jobs Americans won't do" when in fact in the industries where Illegal Immigrants are the most common Americans still hold over 80% of the jobs? Or "we need Illegal Immigrants because we do not have enough workers" when in fact we have over two unemployed Americans (16.6 million) for every working Illegal Immigrant (7.2 million)? Or "farm produce would cost a fortune without Illegal Immigrants" when in fact farm labor makes up only 7% of the cost of such food and even if farm labor wages doubled the effect would be difficult to separate from inflation. Myth is sold as reality.

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." - John F. Kennedy

According to the Pew Center a quarter of agricultural jobs are held by Illegal Immigrants thanks to the growers using said Illegal Immigrants to keep wages down. If you are looking for Hitlers, look for them amongst the people who caused Cesar Chavez to lament "It's ironic that those who till the soil, cultivate and harvest the fruits, vegetables, and other foods that fill your tables with abundance have nothing left for themselves."

Ignacio on Feb 01, 2009 at 22:59:00 said:

Bobby, look where I find you spreading your propaganda. I'm not surprised that Nazi rhetoric follows you. Let me remind all the readers and I'm quoting you: "Let's go back to the National Socialists in Germany. The laws they created were agreed upon by most people." Meaning that it was ok for the German people to kill the Jews, because Germany was a country of Law and that was the law. No wonder you've been called a "PIG." Three B's on Bobby, Three K's on ???, Coincidence?

Richter on Feb 01, 2009 at 22:51:22 said:

I get why you say it. You one of the sick ones. Essen Sie meine Wurst.

Richter on Feb 01, 2009 at 22:39:32 said:

Bobby, none of the organizations you say supported Nazi, never existed in Germany, No LUCAC, No MECHA in Germany, never. Maybe policy from Chamber of commerce, I don't get it. Do you say your government support Nazi? Why would you say something like that.

Bobby on Feb 01, 2009 at 14:54:17 said:

While Richter rambles on about Nazi's, racist ethnic interest groups are avidly destroying the laws of the United States along with their enablers. ACLU, MECHA, LULAC, LA RAZA, Chambers of Commerce, Wall Street journal,etc.etc.

Richter on Jan 31, 2009 at 08:19:43 said:

Wanda, Yes, I know lots about Nazi. My father left Germany as child, while my granfather stayed to try to save more Jews. My granfather died in the war. The hate was the same, the propaganda was the same, Nazi even had minister of propaganda, eventually they built wall, just like in U.S.A. I don't know you Wanda, but many on these posts choose to hate. Beware of monsters, lest you become one. -- Nietzsche

Bobby on Jan 30, 2009 at 13:01:18 said:

Yeah, John,"Americans wouldn't pick lettuce for fifty dollars an hour", McCain,(what he told American blue collar workers)just couldn't get enough support from hispanics despite all of his obsequious, b-tt l--king behavior. Why is he so interested in amnesty? I read just the other day that he is now advising President Obama, on the neccissity of Amnesty for border criminals. Question: In what way is McCain connected to the La Raza groups or even the corrupt government of Mexico??? This guy, like so many of our "leaders", seriously needs to be investigated. Something is not quite right where his fanaticism on Amnesty is concerned.

Dave on Jan 30, 2009 at 11:07:18 said:

A few more points that confirm Americans' strong opposition to amnesty schemes and the negative effects of illegal immigration:

**According to a recent Rasmussen poll, "Seventy-four percent (74%) of U.S. voters continue to believe the federal government is not doing enough to secure the country’s borders."

And, "Sixty-three percent (63%) of voters say gaining control of the border is more important than legalizing the status of undocumented workers in the country."

**the 1986 IRCA Amnesty failed miserably, and led to much more illegal immigration which had a devastating impact on the jobs and wages of many inner-city working class citizens (e.g. African-Americans in Los Angeles).

**Rice University professor Donald Huddle found that in 1996, illegal immigrants were displacing about 730,000 American workers every year, at a cost of about $4.3 billion a year in lost wages.

**In a 2004 study, Harvard economist George Borjas found that by "increasing the supply of labor between 1980 and 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by an estimated $1,700, or roughly 4 percent."

Dave on Jan 30, 2009 at 10:29:03 said:

This last election was absolutely NO mandate for comprehensive immigration reform a/k/a amnesty -- despite the hysterical claims of open-border zealots Frank Sharry and Janet Murguia. Here are basic facts that Sharry, Murguia and other ethnocentric activists conveniently overlook:

**Despite media reports to the contrary, every defeated GOP Congressional candidate supported amnesty or open border policies for illegal aliens - or had Democratic contenders who took tough stands on illegal immigration.

**More Hispanic voters oppose amnesty and support border control than vote for pro-amnesty candidates like John McCain.

**Immigration is not a major factor for Hispanic voters (unlike for the pro-amnesty fringe)

**Whatever gains, if any, pandering to Hispanics gives is greatly outweighed politically by loss of the White Vote.

During this era of massive job loss for Americans it would be incredibly insensitive and politically foolish for President Obama to peddle comprehensive reform amnesty for millions of illegal foreign workers.

The solution that the vast majority of Americans support is enforcement of existing immigration laws so the majority of illegals return to their homelands over time.

And this would have the added benefit of freeing up millions of jobs for Americans, including of course African-Americans and second generation Mexican-Americans who are ignored in this debate by the open-border lobby.

nara on Jan 30, 2009 at 10:00:44 said:

Please understand that people willing pay as much as 50 grand for simple paper ,if somebody can't pay they can't go thru e-verify.Just let be a little bit humane.When first immigrants came nobody ask them a paper indians gave them advice how to raise crop,etc they treated humanely but they leaved 400 years ago.How about you 21-st century intellectual treating toward innocent people who need just right approach to their problem?Why you can't say yes to people's need?

cornelio bolayog on Jan 30, 2009 at 09:45:08 said:

many americans complain that illegal workers in the US accept very cheap wages thus pulling down salaries of american workers. Solution: Legalize the illegals in order to put them in equal footing. Penalize them for immigration law violation. Collect SS and income taxes. Those are funds going into government coffers. The borders? Seal it tight. But people working hard in America should be treated fairly and with dignity.

another steve on Jan 30, 2009 at 09:20:08 said:

Keep dreaming, weasels. REAL immigrants don't require amnesty. The American public is tired of parasites, and we'll beat Dear Leader's amnesty down just like we did the last time.

BC on Jan 30, 2009 at 07:15:19 said:

RIchter - your knowledge of hard working Americans is underwhelming.

Why should the highly skilled craftsman who lays brick for a living be forced to see his wage driven down because Contractors hire someone in the USA Illegally who will takes dirt cheap wages and once build a garden wall or two as their skill set? Think about that before you next use your fireplace. My father worked for years in construction. Contractors would do ANYTHING to break the Unions and drive down wages. If you check Bureau of Labor Statistics (U.S. Gov.) data on Construction Wages from the 1970’s to today and compare them to the Cost of Living you will find they have succeeded in their goal. Through last year before the recession real Construction Wages had fallen 11%. And the only thing that has changed during that time is the influx of Illegal Immigrants taking Construction Jobs.

And in other occupations Illegal Immigrants eagerly take wages that are lower than what a Citizen can earn on welfare. Check this out:

"A 1995 study by the Cato Institute revealed that the value of the total benefit package received by a typical welfare recipient averaged more than $17,000, ranging from a high of over $36,000 in Hawaii to a low of $11,500 in Mississippi. In 9 states welfare pays more than the average first-year salary for a teacher. In 29 states welfare pays more than the average starting salary for a secretary. In 47 states welfare pays more than a janitor makes. Indeed, in the 6 most generous states, benefits exceed the entry-level salary for a computer programmer." - CATO Institute Handbook For Congress.

"Single mothers do not turn to welfare because they are pathologically dependent on handouts or unusually reluctant to work. They do so because they cannot get jobs that pay better than welfare." Christopher Jencks, Rethinking Social Policy: Race, Poverty, and the Underclass (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1991), p. 204.

Meatpacking jobs used to pay $19.00 per hour and employ Citizens. Last year they paid less than $13.00 per hour and employed many Illegal Immigrants.

And finally: "And the preponderance of evidence indicates that the flood of illegal immigrants has hurt those on the bottom of the economic ladder most, blacks in particular and probably even American-born Hispanics." From 'Immigration and Race' By Steve Bailey, The Boston Globe, February 8, 2008. Just prior to the onset of this current recession Minority and Youth unemployment was the worst it had been in thirty years thanks to Illegal Immigration.

See the pattern yet? Or have you already seen the pattern and want to cover it up by calling the opposition Nazis or "less qualified than [an] illegal alien"?

Wanda on Jan 30, 2009 at 00:06:06 said:

Hey RIchter, it seems as though you are fixated with the Nazis. You posted two comments referencing them. The only problem with your reasoning is that the Nazis didn't treat the Jews the way they did because the Jews were illegal aliens. It was because of how one man, Hitler, felt about the Jews. This article is about illegal immigration, not the Nazis and the Jews. If you can't comprehend that, then you have major problems that may need counseling to overcome.

Henry J. on Jan 29, 2009 at 23:53:46 said:

Those individuals who support illegal immigration are the true racists. They think that people with brown skin are above the law and should be granted special rights. A person can't get much more racist than that.

RIchter on Jan 29, 2009 at 23:51:07 said:

What a bunch of whinners. Same hateful attitude as the Nazis. Same attitude to blame others as the Nazis. Too many of them fled to America. If you really think that an illegal took your job, take it back. If you are less qualified than illegal alien, then you need to study and get better, not complain.

Larry on Jan 29, 2009 at 23:03:43 said:

HELP STOP ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.......MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD: www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/about/what-numbersusa-is-all-about.html

Scotty on Jan 29, 2009 at 21:37:15 said:

Carla McBeath
Yes this is a hate convention!

Americans hate our country overrun with illegal foreigners that could care less about this country.
Americans hate all the crime from illegals in the U.S.
Americans hate illegal foreigners and their
supporters steal jobs from Americans.
Have you been to California lately to see who was working in construction?
Why don't you knit socks instead of open you ignorant mouth?

BC on Jan 29, 2009 at 21:33:13 said:

Ms. McBeath - A Pew study "estimated that illegal immigrants fill a quarter of all agricultural jobs, 17 percent of office and house cleaning positions, 14 percent of construction jobs and 12 percent in food preparation." That means that 75 percent of all agricultural jobs, 83 percent of office and house cleaning positions, 86 percent of construction jobs and 88 percent of the food preparation jobs are done by U.S. Citizens and Legal Residents. There is no such a thing as jobs Illegal Immigrants do not push Citizens and Legal Residents out of since so many Citizens and Legal Residents are doing those jobs. And now unemployment is over 10% in all these professions with Farm Work at 18% unemployment and Construction at 16% unemployment. Orval Faubus would be proud of your attempt to change the subject from Illegal Immigrants and their effect on Citizen employment to Legal Immigrants (Legal Residents). Call out the National Guard!

Richter on Jan 29, 2009 at 21:11:25 said:

Some of these dudes are quoting FAIR and numbersusa, etc... all hate thinktanks. It reminds me of the very attitude which led the Third reich to kill over 7 million Jews. It makes me think that we Europeans should have never come to this Continent.

Brittanicus on Jan 29, 2009 at 18:55:59 said:

Is there no accountability by any State, county or city government for demanding taxpayers, cover the costs for any illegal alien family that breaks our laws. JUDICIAL WATCH, is a legal watchdog using the power of the courts, to fight political corruption, illegal immigration, sanctuary states and city police enforcement, alien gang member deportation, 247(g) police enforcement and sham border fence. Learn about the liberal lies that for six years the press have suggested their are only 12 million illegal aliens squatting in America. Nor do they inform you that our nation welcomes more legal immigrants, than any country in the world. Find the ugly facts at www.judicialwatch.org, www.numbersusa.com and www.americanpatrol.com

Bobby on Jan 29, 2009 at 15:19:58 said:

Carla McBeath, excuse me, but our ancestors did not emmigrate to a nation of finished roads, skyscrapers,phone lines, airports, cars, factories, housing for shelter, vast wheat fields, etc. But I'll say one thing, people like you will get us back into that orginal state. Are you driving a car, on a road, with a cell phone? Naw, these things never occur to you, do they? You have no alligance to the people of the past that sacrificed and built this nation you are living so comforably in--do you? I'd ask you to think about it, but I think you're too far gone. Go back to the fantasy's of reading the leftist playbook.

Bobby on Jan 29, 2009 at 15:13:10 said:

Steve, are you living in cloud cookoo land or something. "Employers shut down and move to other countries because they can't find employees Here!!!! They move because they can't find slave labor here, Steve. Try Nike, GE, Hershey, etc the list would fill a phone book. You can't be serious? The problem is that people like you can't see the big picture, you're the one focused exclusively on the "immigrants."

Carla McBeath on Jan 29, 2009 at 15:10:15 said:

What a Hate Convention this is! You guys have no idea how easy it is to manipulate you, as all you have to hear is the catchphrase "illegal alien", and you're ready to form a lynch mob.Immigrants never stole jobs from you. Corporations like Visa International outsourced their telephone clerks to South Asia, as they could pay 29 cents an hour, instead of a prevailing wage.One example. Greedy corporate profits have been driving this economic fiasco for forty years.Now that we are in this quagmire, we need to turn to our immigrant brothers and sisters to learn how to manage small businesses, live on less, value our extended families,and appreciate that we live in a country in peace. Oh, you don't want peace? You really miss those lynch mobs?
Also, btw, unless you are Native American, your ancestors immigrated.

Marty on Jan 29, 2009 at 15:01:58 said:

Isn't Steve a Hoot?

Now everyone is deportable Steve!

Only illegal aliens.

(wonder where this guy came from?)

steve on Jan 29, 2009 at 13:58:08 said:

Interesting comments on how people think that the problem is so easy and that immigrants bring nothing to the table. Perhaps realizing that it would not just effect latinos but eropeans, canadans, australians, chinese, koreans etc. Oh yeah, it is all about Mexico, nobody else is illegal...... error of fact.

Sure, lets us deport everyone, not just the hispanics but all the illegals and notice then how many foreclosures we now face because we deported the wage earner, how many more families are now on welfare, forced because the wage earner is now gone, how many companies either shut down because they cant find employees here and move to other countries. It is much cheaper to find labor elsewhere and they don't have to worry about e-verifying the ones who actually work. Quit playing X Box and work... the immigrants do.

Bobby on Jan 29, 2009 at 13:38:30 said:

Americans simply don't get it. Our government is hostile to the wellbeing of its taxpaying citizens. Banks are rewarded with taxpayers money, Wall Street is bailed out with taxpayers money, Americans jobs and wages are depressed by H1-B visas, illegal immigration, and outsourcing. Amnesty is nothing more than another kick in the teeth to the citizenry, and will result in massive chain migration, which will result in social upheavel, environmental damage, and culturaly disaster--regardless of what the left preaches in Colleges, schools, or on the Main Stream Media. These are going to be the realities that Americans will suffer. Americans, by the millions need to lose their stupidity and apathy--and fast.

BC on Jan 29, 2009 at 13:04:34 said:

A recent article stated 58% of lobbying for Comprehensive Immigration Reform was paid by Big Business. In 1924 Samuel Gompers, President of the AFL wrote: "Every effort to enact immigration legislation must expect to meet a number of hostile forces… One of these is composed of corporation employers who desire to employ physical strength (broad backs) at the lowest possible wage and who prefer a rapidly revolving labor supply at low wages to a regular supply of American wage earners at fair wages." Per the US Bureau of Labor Statistics 16.6 million Americans are looking for work today. Per the Pew Center 7.2 million people working in the US are doing so illegally. That makes big business very happy because now they have both those working here illegally and the unemployed to drive wages down. And if they can legalize those working here illegally that just guarantees the maintenance of the big pool of unemployed. Since when is America a place where we punish our own people with unemployment, while rewarding those who broke the law with status protected from deportation? I thought Labor Pool economics went out with the horse and buggy, yet here it is alive and well. And maybe I am being naive but I thought that we have been trying to move America away from being a place where a shared National Origin or a shared religion is more important than citizenship and legality? Silly me!

Trixie on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:47:59 said:

herera guess what?

Carlos Slim has offered to give you a $5000
load.

You have to sign the papers in Mexico to get
it.
NOW GO!

soulshadow55 on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:46:55 said:

To Cookie:

You say that if amnesty is granted, all illegal immigrants should be required to pay a $10,000 fine. What makes you think that illegal immigrants would pay a fine of any amount, or do anything that the government required of them to become U.S. citizens? During the last attempt at immigration reform, it was suggested that illegal immigrants be made to return to their home country, pay a fine and work through immigration to become legal. There was a huge uproar from the illegal immigrant crowd about how these "poor undocumented people couldn't possibly pay such a large amount of money." Nor could they go back to their home countries because if they did, the U.S. would find some way to stop them from coming back. It didn't matter that they had paid some coyote $5,000 to be smuggled across the border. It seems like illegal immigrants want citizenship on a silver platter but don't want to have to do anything at all for it.

I believe that any proposal short of complete and utter acquience to their illegal demands and illegal immigrants would again protest in the streets waving flags from foreign countries. Illegal immigrants don't want to have to face any penalties, or consequences to their illegal presence in the U.S. They would hollar loudly about discrimination, we can't pay, we have no money, it takes to long, this used to be part of Mexico, on and on and on.

I think people need to realize that U.S. citizens will be in a total uproar if another amnesty passes. And remember, we have the vote and we can vote out any Congressman who votes for amnesty. Especially if it is passed and U.S. citizens see the effects that it would have on their country. It would be unfair for Congress to allow amnesty to people who have broken the law again and again. U.S. citizens don't get such a break when we commit a crime. The opposition would only have to say "he supported the amnesty bill" and that Congressman would be out.

The win-win situation you speak of would never make up for the enormous number of "now-legal" people who would put a strain on social services, schools, housing and jobs. On top of that, they would then petition for their "5th-cousin- once-removed" to become a citizen and the flood starts all over again. We could completely drain Cental and South America of all its population with just one more amnesty.

Also, as soon as they get amnesty, another hoard of illegals would come flooding across the border waiting for the next amnesty. It will never end unless it is stopped completely with E-Verify, no jobs, no anchor baby provisions, no health care, no education, no college - no nothing. Illegal is illegal.

Ali on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:26:25 said:

herera wrote:"Il pay even 50000 for my papers ...I'll make a loan"

And people wonder why illegal aliens were at the heart of the subprime meltdown. Situation's changed, herera. Who do you plan to get a loan from, and with what collateral? Maybe you plan to pay with someone else's credit card, as so many illegal aliens have done? If you have rich relatives, you don't need to be here.

Ali on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:22:00 said:

"if amnesty is granted, and each applicant is required to pay fees and penalty that may total $10,000 each. that could add up to billions of dollar that could go to the government. plus additional personell is required to process them (more employment). plus more taxable income from these immigrants (additional revenue for the government).
this is a win win situation for everyone involved."

And just where are minimum wage workers going to get $10,000 or any sizeable sum (given that they should have to pay back taxes, penalties, etc.)? Furthermore, doing SECURITY CHECKS (these are done overseas and ARE NOT simply background checks) on 20 million people, most of whom have committed fraud and used multiple identities, would cost roughly $5,000 EACH--and take years upon years to do, diverting resources from anti-terrorism activities and depriving legal immigrants of fast processing.

As for paying taxes, not likely. They're more likely, even legalized, to continue to be net users of taxes and services because even with legalization they'd still be among the working poor--uneducated, unskilled, and far too numerous to have much chance of getting significantly better wages, especially if we continue to get MORE illegal aliens or if legalized workers then sponsor their relatives (also unskilled and uneducated) to come here.

herera on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:09:34 said:

Il pay even 50000 for my papers ...I'll make a loan

Bobby on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:04:09 said:

If amnesty is given, then it means that Congress, the Senate, the Chambers of Commerce and a racist ethnic interest group have defeated the will of American citizens. Period.

Tiger on Jan 29, 2009 at 12:01:28 said:

Cookie ask yourself why an American citizen
like Anonymous should go to Canada?
This is his/her country.
Because that person states the truth he/she
is a racist?

Maybe you should head back south of the border.
Isn't that your homeland?

Apache on Jan 29, 2009 at 11:58:11 said:

Anonymous:
"The only immigration reforms needed are to seal our borders and deport all illegal alien work thieves."

ANONYMOUS MY HERO! :)

NO AMNESTY EVER AGAIN! WE WILL WORK OUR
FINGERS TO THE BONE TO STOP THAT AGAIN! :)

June Deakle on Jan 29, 2009 at 11:58:02 said:

Just go on thinking that you will continue the invasion from the south, Senora Murguia. Wait until Bush's clone, Obama, decides to let illegal aliens stay. The phones in Washington will be ringing off the hook as the did last year when Kennedy, McCain and other pro-illegals thought their amnesty bill would sail right though. Why would any country want 30 million criminals and those who support their crimes.

Pragmatist on Jan 29, 2009 at 07:54:15 said:

Or the other option is for idiots like Anonymous to go to Canada. We don't need or want your ignorant racist friends. Win an election and then opine.

cookie on Jan 29, 2009 at 07:54:15 said:

if amnesty is granted, and each applicant is required to pay fees and penalty that may total $10,000 each. that could add up to billions of dollar that could go to the government. plus additional personell is required to process them (more employment). plus more taxable income from these immigrants (additional revenue for the government).
this is a win win situation for everyone involved.

HernandezUSA on Jan 29, 2009 at 07:19:54 said:

1986 Amnesty was a COMPLETE failure, because Enforcement was not REALIZED and now we have more ILLEGAL ALIENS than every before!

"in the first year of democratic majority rule, Nelson Mandela’s government expelled almost 60,000 undocumented migrants, most of whom were from neighboring Mozambique. " - President Obamas role model.

"South Africa has shown that a country determined to put its own citizens’ interests first will deport illegal aliens in numbers. Yet its example is ignored by those who say "it can't be done". The answer is: "Yes it can". It can even be done creatively."

We need the SAVE ACT and E-verify used for every business and NOT Amnesty for criminals.

E-verify does not discriminate against RACE, Religion, SEX or physically capability only your Citizenship and your LEGAL right to be and work in United States.

If we can stop Predatory business owners from hiring then the Illegal Aliens will not Stay and return to their native Countries.

This ISSUE is not about RACE, but Governments Federal/State/LOCAL not doing their jobs, because big and small business owners want cheap workers and no labor laws to bother with......Its called GREED!

.numbersusa.com
//dontspeakforme.org/

Anonymous 1.29.09 on Jan 29, 2009 at 02:51:12 said:

The only immigration reforms needed are to seal our borders and deport all illegal alien work thieves.

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