Did BART Cop who Killed Oscar Grant Mistake Gun for Taser?

San Francisco Bay View, News Analysis , Junya Posted: Jan 07, 2009

Just as in war, in extrajudicial killings, truth is the first casualty.

We cannot expect to receive any reports except those that justify, excuse or minimize the killing of Oscar Grant by BART police at 2 a.m. New Year’s Day. It begins with the first report of an “officer-involved shooting”: a term that serves to evade the issue of circumvention of justice and remove the shocking lethality, while assigning the killer a passive role - reduced to merely being “involved” in some unstated way.

The Oakland Tribune story “Man dies in BART officer-involved shooting” is a perfect example. The report completely removes the killer from the killing and shifts responsibility to a mischievous little self-willed, but incontinent, gun: “an officer’s gun discharged, wounding Grant.”

Now the San Francisco Chronicle provides an example of journalism sacrificed in service of police deception: “One source familiar with the investigation said BART is looking into a number of things, including whether the officer had meant to fire his Taser stun gun rather than his firearm.”

The Taser excuse is so preposterous that the source preferred to remain anonymous. Why is the Chronicle printing unaccountable rumors? Yet the article begins with the official BART statement: “BART’s police chief asked for patience from the public today after video footage surfaced showing one of his officers fatally shooting an unarmed man … he found the footage to be inconclusive.”

So, officially, we should wait for the police investigation, and not believe our lying eyes. Yet, unofficially, police anonymously spread disinformation that would have us believe that it was something less than the murder we see in several witnesses’ videos.

You would think that if the policeman actually meant to fire his Taser, he would have immediately admitted that mistake to clear himself from a murder charge. Why would the investigation need to be “looking into” that possibility? I try in vain to envision the policeman sweating under the glare of an intense interrogation about the killing, when the interrogator asks, “Officer, is it possible that you might have mistaken your Glock for a Taser?” I’m sure the killer cop would fall out of his seat laughing.

Why is the Taser excuse absurd?
1. The manual states that the Taser X26 weighs 7 ounces. Depending on model and bullets loaded, a Glock pistol can weigh from 25-38 ounces. You don’t have to be a weapons expert to feel the difference between holding about two pounds and holding less than half a pound - try it.

2. Police pistols are all black, sometimes with a very dark brown grip. The X26 has bright yellow markings on it. It also has a 2-digit LED display.

3. The X26 has a safety on the grip that must be released. The Glock safety is on the trigger.

So let’s review the minimum steps of a Taser deployment:

1. You pull out the lightweight, brightly colored weapon. You load the cartridge onto the tip of the barrel. The cartridge is fat and rectangular, looking nothing like a pistol barrel.

2. You reach on the grip and flip the safety up. The LED display lights up like half of your digital alarm clock, then shows the percentage charge.

3. Police are taught NEVER to use Tasers in life-threatening situations (ensuring that the “Tasers save lives” mantra remains a fairy tale). So, since that eliminates the “split-second judgment” defense, every Taser policy I’ve seen requires a warning before firing, to give the victim the opportunity to comply. Police like to report that merely pointing the Taser and issuing the warning is often sufficient.

To accept that the killer went through these steps without realizing he actually had in his hands a heavy, dark pistol - with no LED display and no cartridge loaded or to be loaded - requires the kind of suspension of belief we’ve not been asked to make since “Plan 9 from Outer Space” hit the screens.

Most likely, this cockamamie rumor is spread by the police in order to buy time. It’s damage control, to pacify an angry public until they can come up with some way to blame the victim.

Tuesday the Chronicle amplified this “Taser mistake” nonsense:

“Don Cameron, a former BART police sergeant and weapons expert who now teaches police officers about proper use of force, said Monday that he had watched footage of Grant’s death and was convinced that the officer had meant to fire a Taser … Cameron said he made his conclusion based in part on the officer’s stance, and the fact that a second officer moved away from Grant just before he was shot, perhaps trying to avoid a second-hand shock.”

Is there any end to the fictions we’re asked to believe? Everyone knows Tasers do not give “second-hand shock,” because we’ve all seen those jive jolt sessions where police hold a reporter as the reporter gets a sample shock from a Taser. We also watched police piled on University of Florida student Andrew Meyer after he questioned Sen. John Kerry at a campus forum. None moved away before, or while, Meyer was Tasered. On the other hand, stepping away from someone pointing a Glock requires no explanation.

The Taser-confusion rumor is now posted on Police One, a law enforcement website where “You must be a confirmed law enforcement member of PoliceOne to post a comment. The comments below are member-generated ….”

Standing apart from the expected boo-hoos for the “devastated” killer is one skeptic, arguing along the same lines I argued:

“I have a hard time understanding how one could mistake a firearm for a Taser, even in a high stress situation. The reason being that even though the Taser may draw and feel similar to a firearm, one has to turn it on. What about the motor skills learned of flicking the switch to turn the Taser’s power on? Would that particular motor skill go out the window during high stress? It seems to me that if one pulled out their firearm, meaning to pull out their Taser, one would wonder where the power switch had gone to when they attempted to turn it on. Should that not tell the mind that there is something not right with ‘this Taser’?”

2002 ‘Taser mistake’ case

There have been at least three shootings where police claim to have mistaken their Glock for a Taser. The most recent I know of was in 2002 in Madera, where Marcy Noriega killed amateur boxer Everado Torres after he was arrested - following a loud party complaint - and handcuffed in the back of a squad car. Noriega was armed with the older and heavier Taser M26 (19.2 ounces). Madera police did not have their Tasers marked with yellow tape; they only added it after the killing. The M26 has a simple LED, with no digital display. But the Taser holster was on the thigh, while the Glock was on the hip.

No criminal charges were brought against Noriega. The federal district court dismissed the family’s civil suit in 2005, but in May 2008 the appeals court ordered the district court to decide if Noriega acted unreasonably.

Related Articles:

Copwatch 2.0: Cell Phones Usher in New Era of Police Accountability

Tasers: NYC Tragedy Waiting to Happen?

Hello Class, My Name is Mrs. Smith And I Carry a Gun


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junya on Jan 18, 2009 at 00:35:33 said:

"A gun mistaken for a Taser also occurred in Kitsap County, Washington State, last year. A deputy meant to Tase a combative man but shot him with her weapon by mistake. The man survived. Totally believable scenario. Why would the BART officer intentionally shoot the guy with so many people around? Because he wasn't intending to, that's why."

Key differences between Kitsap deputy case and BART police case are mentioned in the article:

"The deputy carried an older model M-26 taser with a similar grip and feel of her handgun.
The sheriff's department is phasing in new X-26 models, which are smaller and have a noticeably different feel than a handgun."

BART police carry the X-26. Also, the Kitsap deputy case states:

"Tasers are often worn on the same leg as an officer's handgun"

BART police wear the Taser and gun on opposite sides.


Mandingo on Jan 15, 2009 at 16:07:42 said:

If memory serves me correct, there were over one hundred and seventy murders in Oakland last year. The majority of those murders went unsolved with no one arrested. Why is this case more heinous than any of the others? Why the outrage or one person? Where was the protest for the person that was shot at 83rd and E14th?

Hypocrates all of you!


Dale Carnahan on Jan 15, 2009 at 08:08:08 said:

10:30 PM PDT on Thursday, June 22, 2006
By CHRIS INGALLS / KING 5 News NBC Seattle

BREMERTON – A Kitsap County deputy is under investigation after she accidentally shot a man. The deputy thought she had her taser in her hand.
Several Kitsap County deputies gathered under a tree in a Bremerton lot where a man – shouting and dressed only in underwear – refused to come down.
"I heard him say very loudly: 'I'm unarmed!'" said witness Kathy Norton.
Kathy and Tom Norton heard a shot and saw a female deputy pointing something at the man who was less than 10 feet up the tree.
"She dropped and was hurt. You could see she was scared. It wasn't like it was on purpose," said Kathy.
"As soon as the shot was done she walked over there and got on one knee. She was distraught," said Tom.
Tasers are often worn on the same leg as an officer's handgun, and the Sheriff's Department says the 5-year veteran deputy mistakenly grabbed her gun instead of the taser.
"It doesn't seem that the deputy was under immediate pressure to draw and fire right away. That will come out in the investigation. The primary deputy called for a second taser application. The deputy pulled out what she thought was a taser and fired a shot," said Deputy Scott Wilson, Kitsap County Sheriff's Department.
The deputy carried an older model M-26 taser with a similar grip and feel of her handgun.
The sheriff's department is phasing in new X-26 models, which are smaller and have a noticeably different feel than a handgun.


Dale Carnahan on Jan 15, 2009 at 08:07:10 said:

10:30 PM PDT on Thursday, June 22, 2006
By CHRIS INGALLS / KING 5 News NBC Seattle

BREMERTON – A Kitsap County deputy is under investigation after she accidentally shot a man. The deputy thought she had her taser in her hand.
Several Kitsap County deputies gathered under a tree in a Bremerton lot where a man – shouting and dressed only in underwear – refused to come down.
"I heard him say very loudly: 'I'm unarmed!'" said witness Kathy Norton.
Kathy and Tom Norton heard a shot and saw a female deputy pointing something at the man who was less than 10 feet up the tree.
"She dropped and was hurt. You could see she was scared. It wasn't like it was on purpose," said Kathy.
"As soon as the shot was done she walked over there and got on one knee. She was distraught," said Tom.
Tasers are often worn on the same leg as an officer's handgun, and the Sheriff's Department says the 5-year veteran deputy mistakenly grabbed her gun instead of the taser.
"It doesn't seem that the deputy was under immediate pressure to draw and fire right away. That will come out in the investigation. The primary deputy called for a second taser application. The deputy pulled out what she thought was a taser and fired a shot," said Deputy Scott Wilson, Kitsap County Sheriff's Department.
The deputy carried an older model M-26 taser with a similar grip and feel of her handgun.
The sheriff's department is phasing in new X-26 models, which are smaller and have a noticeably different feel than a handgun.


Dale Carnahan on Jan 15, 2009 at 08:04:44 said:

10:30 PM PDT on Thursday, June 22, 2006
By CHRIS INGALLS / KING 5 News NBC Seattle

BREMERTON – A Kitsap County deputy is under investigation after she accidentally shot a man. The deputy thought she had her taser in her hand.
Several Kitsap County deputies gathered under a tree in a Bremerton lot where a man – shouting and dressed only in underwear – refused to come down.
"I heard him say very loudly: 'I'm unarmed!'" said witness Kathy Norton.
Kathy and Tom Norton heard a shot and saw a female deputy pointing something at the man who was less than 10 feet up the tree.
"She dropped and was hurt. You could see she was scared. It wasn't like it was on purpose," said Kathy.
"As soon as the shot was done she walked over there and got on one knee. She was distraught," said Tom.
Tasers are often worn on the same leg as an officer's handgun, and the Sheriff's Department says the 5-year veteran deputy mistakenly grabbed her gun instead of the taser.
"It doesn't seem that the deputy was under immediate pressure to draw and fire right away. That will come out in the investigation. The primary deputy called for a second taser application. The deputy pulled out what she thought was a taser and fired a shot," said Deputy Scott Wilson, Kitsap County Sheriff's Department.
The deputy carried an older model M-26 taser with a similar grip and feel of her handgun.
The sheriff's department is phasing in new X-26 models, which are smaller and have a noticeably different feel than a handgun.


dale carnahan on Jan 15, 2009 at 07:59:09 said:

A gun mistaken for a Taser also occurred in Kitsap County, Washington State, last year. A deputy meant to Tase a combative man but shot him with her weapon by mistake. The man survived. Totally believable scenario. Why would the BART officer intentionally shoot the guy with so many people around? Because he wasn't intending to, that's why.


RETCOMBATVET on Jan 14, 2009 at 21:12:15 said:

Dear lasam,

I am not defending this officer. In fact, I think that there is little defense in regards to his actions. I do believe that many other people may have assisted in getting this man into a position where he was killed (including himself).

I find it interesting that responsibility seems to be looked upon as police-only tangible goods. Often we rise up in protest about the actions of the police, but what about our actions? What is the ratio of deaths and injuries from within "our own ranks" in comparison with those commited by improper and/or questionable policing?

I will repeat some of what I have been saying:

I find it disturbing that we become so angry about this situation and we do virtually nothing about the trouble with our youth. We do nothing because we live our lives as if we are nothing. We polute our bodies and brains with tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. We buy it, sell it, distribute it to our friends and families. We steal for our habits. We injure and murder for our addictions. We drag ourselves down and debase our children.

When will we protest our own actions? Why do we mourn one individual when we destroy ourselves and our children every day? We do far more damage ourselves, to ourselves and our children, than this one individual’s death or even the accumulated deaths of all wrongful police shootings. Yet we will continue to destroy our children because that is our own business, right? We don’t want to change our self-serving lifestyles, do we? We don’t want to rock the boat that we row in. We don’t want to do the hard work. We just want to rock someone else’s boat. Maybe the problem isn’t the shooting of Mr. Grant. Maybe the problem is that the police shot Mr. Grant. Search within your own hearts. If Mr. Grant had been shot and killed by one of us, would anyone care? If it had been one of our own children would anyone raise a fuss? Would anyone protest?

If this were gang related or a random robbery would you, any of you, be irate and raising alarm? No you wouldn’t. It happens every day and yet you sit and say “too bad” or “that’s a shame”.

When do we mobilize? Is it only when it’s a police-related shooting? Maybe our apathy towards the everyday crimes we perpetrate upon ourselves is the real problem and our ingrained hatred of police is an excuse to become outraged. We are weak, selfish, misdirected, and unwilling to change ourselves. We believe we are always right and that we can’t change what we do as a people. We waste our lives every minute and just accept it as “that’s just the way it is”.

When will we examine our selves?

I never hear any protesting when we kill someone like Mr. Grant by any other means. It’s acceptable for one of us (the general public) to murder him. It just isn’t acceptable for the police to do it. Shame on the police for taking away our right to murder.

Well, there are plenty of other victims out there for us. A number of us are already doing our part to destroy our society but the rest of us need to get off of the useless blogging and get back to our self-absorbed lifestyles.

Remember, every man for himself. Fight the power. Down with “the man”. Just don’t interfere with my right to hit the hash pipe, or steal from my neighbor, or deal drugs to your children.

LASTLY:

WHY DO SO MANY OF YOU SUPPORT SLAVERY??!!??

All of these drugs and alcohol make for nice little slaves! We serve them and keep their shackles on with blind obedience! We sacrifice our friends and our loved ones for another fix or another drink. WHY?

Tobacco isn’t much better, either! It’s just not quite as destructive as the alcohol and drugs.

WHY KEEP OURSELVES SERVING THE DRUG AND ALCOHOL MASTERS????

Get help! Free yourselves from the chains of addiction!

IS THIS FORM OF SLAVERY SOMETHING THAT DR. KING WOULD APPROVE?

When will we address these issues? Why aren't all of these lives worth fighting for?


lasam on Jan 14, 2009 at 12:28:25 said:

RETCOMBATVET

I agree with you on the fact that the bystanders made it more difficult to get the situation under control, the situation was chotic. But for Christ sakes, the man was cuffed on the ground, not much he could do. It's bad enough the officer drew his gun, and then we see what happens. The gun is only to be drawn when you feel threatened. Don't be so quick to jump on the "What if" situation. We have video that clearly shows what happened. We see the gun drawn and fired. Common sense tells you it was unecessary. In fact, by pulling his gun out, that brought more tension to the scenario if anything. But his job as an officer is to control that. Yes, police are people too who make mistakes, and granted the situation was chaotic, but if your a cop and your issued a fire arm, it's YOUR job to use it responsibly. He did not and that's why this man is dead.


Steph on Jan 12, 2009 at 20:36:48 said:

What the hell is that suppose to mean? We can\'t protest over every somalian kid that starves to death each day but it doesn\'t mean those people didn\'t matter in the world.

This incident is significant in the sense of police and public relations. Police have historically been known to use their power unfairly against the public. I\'m not saying all cops but this is the common sentiment of the public.

When something like this happens and is even documented in video, pictures, etc. NOT protesting says that we see what\'s happening and are ok with it.

This just happens to have been the incident caught on tape that we can now use to fight for the justice of all the incidents that were never seen.


RETCOMBATVET on Jan 11, 2009 at 10:08:44 said:

Too bad Mr. Grant didn’t die of gang violence, or drug overdose, or a random robbery, burglary, hit-and-run, or some other everyday occurrence. Nobody would be damaging anything or taking time from their otherwise dubious or heinous activities. Not a single member of the general public would care if he died by any other means.

How can I say this? Well, I never hear any protesting when we kill someone like Mr. Grant by any other means. It’s acceptable for one of us (the general public) to murder him. It just isn’t acceptable for the police to do it. Shame on the police for taking away our right to murder.

Well, there are plenty of other victims out there for us. A number of us are already doing our part to destroy our society but the rest of us need to get off of the useless blogging and get back to our self-absorbed lifestyles.
Remember, every man for himself. Fight the power. Down with “the man”. Just don’t interfere with my right to hit the hash pipe, or steal from my neighbor, or deal drugs to your children.
Thank God for our family values.


bill gates on Jan 11, 2009 at 00:17:35 said:

that cop knew wut the hell he did and i dont care if he thought it was his taser. he got no reason to shoot him with a gun or taser if the man was handcuffed face down to the floor. the cop should be sent to prison so everyone can beat him up for wut he did. i wish they kill that cop after people beat his azz. if that man was white he prolly wouldnt even pepper sprayed him. racist cop.


RETCOMBATVET on Jan 09, 2009 at 06:30:55 said:

It is rather difficult to keep a running commentary on two fronts, but a lot of my better logic is posted on the original website for this article.

I invite all to join the discussion there and to read a lot of my postings there.

www.sfbayview.com/2009/did-bart-cop-who-killed-oscar-grant-mistake-gun-for-taser/comment-page-1/#comment-820


Just copy and paste the above link. Or, here it is again:

www.sfbayview.com/2009/did-bart-cop-who-killed-oscar-grant-mistake-gun-for-taser/comment-page-1/#comment-820


jean on Jan 09, 2009 at 05:54:36 said:

here is a link to the video on youtube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHjhtYZpX0


a man was killed, we should focus on that, regardless of whether it was an accident or not. Oscar Grant was killed. furthermore, i would like more attention to the officer, his name is johannes mehserle by the way. before being interested in possible theories by experts, what does this man have to say? what about the people that were there, the other cops? on the video we can hear people yelling out things like \'let him go\' and other stuff suggesting that the officer was guilty. while i was looking for more info on this i found the case of Adolph Grimes III shot 12 times in the back by at least seven NOPD officers on New Year\'s Eve this year, also. There wasn\'t a video of this but it deserves as much attention and above all, justice. i agree with the idea that the way this murder has been handled so far speaks of corruption in the system and a sickening solidarity between cops. this sucks, and i think that its great that people are protesting. hunt him out!! ok no. but this whole thing makes me angry. and i do recognize that his whole thing could be very horrible for the cop, as well.and only cops know what being a cop is truly like. perhaps it was an accident? I also wonder if he had planned it? Maybe he\'s a sadist.a racist? who knows. but johannes needs to go to jail. eff tha police. legalize it. gay marriage!


LCDR. Anderson on Jan 08, 2009 at 21:23:01 said:

Dear "RETCOMBATVET"
You need to calm down in some of your comments and come up with better replies than "Please take your medicine and calm down." As for the bystanders, you can't blame them for the murder. I'm pretty sure the only people with guns were the police. Police are also trained to remain calm in high tension situations; your bystanders were sitting down and cooperating, so tension wouldn't have even been that high. Also, don't compare military personnel with police. Police carry a pistol and try to maintain order within the country and the military are sent in and out of the country to fight for America. To follow up on police, of course they will be blamed. Who pulled the trigger? The Police. You are one of those people that are always on the cop's side aren't you? A man is dead and you blame people other than the actual shooter? The problem is: When innocent people get shot by the police, the officer get a slap on the wrist; When a police officer gets shot, that person that shot him/her gets extremely penalized. The law will never be perfect because of laws contradicting each other. None of this would have happened if the officer would have just left him alone, handcuffed on the ground instead of pulling out his firearm, thinking it was a taser. Point being said, it was the officer's fault, no one else.


tim haskell on Jan 08, 2009 at 14:12:05 said:

im white and i think that pulling these guys out was a racisist act.why no white guys around just white cops, or is this just a colerd neiborhood?eitherway that guy did not deserve to get shot he was face down man it was murder!!!


Sam on Jan 08, 2009 at 13:53:14 said:

Where did you read that in Point 1. That would totally change everything wouldn't it?

You sound like a very bright person for 27. Unfortunately, I'm unable to verify your point 1 that the officer wasn't equipped with a taser.

Help me and us out here. Where did you read that?


Joseph Serino on Jan 08, 2009 at 13:20:11 said:

Point #1 - I have read that there is no evidence that this officer was even equipped with a taser at the time of the execution.

Therefore, the mistake was not that he grabbed the weapon but that he in fact didn't know what he was armed with!

I am only 27 years old but with the common sense and knowledge that I have accumulated over the years would lead me to conclusively deny that the officer didn't know what weapon he had.

Point #2 - Even if the officer meant to pull out a taser (which we are not sure that he had) this action was excessive.

Even a taser was not necessary for the circumstance !


Sam on Jan 08, 2009 at 12:55:03 said:

I'm not white..LOL!!! Just want to make that totally clear. I've watched that video over 100 times now. The cop made a mistake. His reaction alone leads me to believe that.

But I do agree. How did he not know? I suspect he's a total dumb arse that was barely hanging on to his job anyways. Unfortunately, Oscar had to die before someone got rid of his butt.

Then I'm left to wonder. How many people have died from this mistake? Sure...we hear about officer involved shoots all the time. Yet I'm starting to wonder were those mistakes also? Mistakes that turned into cover ups.

That really makes me wonder.


RN on Jan 08, 2009 at 12:01:14 said:

I can't understand the justifications for this ridiculously cut and dry case. I've lived in Oakland for several years, and it's a well known fact that you get pulled over if there are move than 3 black people in a car. This is nothing new, the only difference is that it was caught on video.
There are several police standing over these young black men. They are obviously in control of the situation. None of the young men are resisting at all.
There is a special place in hell for all of you who are using "confusion", "distraction", or any other STUPID justification for the LOSS OF A LIFE! What if it was your son! Could you dismiss things so easily then?
This man was shot in the back while face down on the platform. He posed no threat to the officer. I don't give a DAMN about the officer's newborn child, or his personal life. He needlessly took the life of someone else's child!
Why did he pull his gun! The other officers did not feel threatened enough to pull their guns. For me, that says that this officer was unjustified in pulling his weapon.


junya on Jan 08, 2009 at 11:10:19 said:

CORRECTION:

Yesterday BART police Chief Gary Gee revealed that standard-issue pistols for BART police are Sig-Sauer .40-caliber semi-automatic pistols (not the Glocks that many other police agencies carry).

Of course, that doesn’t lessen the absurdity of the “Taser-confusion” hoax. The Sig-Sauer look and weight is similar to the Glock. It weighs 34 ounces. You can view one model at:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SIG_P226_img_1624.jpg


RETCOMBATVET on Jan 08, 2009 at 10:16:33 said:

Dear Lulzmongler,

Please take your medication and calm down.


lulzmongler on Jan 08, 2009 at 05:51:10 said:

lol, I love that last comment.

let us be clear about something:

we, as citizens, DEMAND that our police officers be held to the utmost standards.

if the US president accidentally launched nuclear weapons at pakistan because he thought it was a drill, would you say: "oh he just made a mistake, he is only human"

no. you would burn effigies of him, you would impeach him, you would send him to jail, you would demand the strictest penalty possible...

every potential cadet should be well aware that their proposed line of work will offer:

very little respect, and tons of hatred
very little compensation
extreme responsibility and accountability.

life isnt fair. no one ever said that you SHOULD have a proportionate amount of responsibility relative to your compensation (salary).

a police officer is almost like a priest or a monk.

they must selflessly sacrifice their happiness for the good of the law, endure the criticism and hatred of the community, and be utterly responsible for every twitch of their muscles.

that other police officers blindly defend a fellow officer due to some backwards brotherly understanding of the pressures involved is absolutely horrifying.

such behavior makes a US police officer no different from a military officer in a police state.

it makes a police officer part of some corrupt "military caste" within the community.

when a police officer can literally get away with murder (or manslaughter), unintended or not, it sets a huge precedent.

this is not rodney king. this is not a misunderstanding by the public.

this is a case of a bumbling idiot police officer, someone who crammed for their tests and never should have been issued a weapon (just like 20% of the rest of the police force).

this is the case of an idiot who killed a totally innocent civilian.

this is the case of a complet UNDERSTANDING of the situation by the police, and total denial and corruption on their part.

lawsuits, bad publicity, increased costs due to IA scrutiny; a negative result would be a disaster for the police.

admitting that they license idiots to shoot civilians is the equivalent of the US military admitting that they knowingly give psychologically unstable sociopaths AR-15 rifles and then let them roam free in a country with few safeguards.

the police are stupid.

if they were in ANY WAY intelligent they would fully admit that this was pure officer negligence.

they would distance themselves from this specific officer.

obviously he does not represent the entire force.

this is the case of the C- student who is given a job as an accountant.

dont be surprised when he messes up the numbers


RETCOMBATVET on Jan 08, 2009 at 01:40:10 said:

I think it's interesting how people think that some police training automatically means that these men and women are turned into simple robots.
These are not robots with strict guidelines written into their systems...these are PEOPLE! Just as soldiers in combat situations react differently so do these people. I wish that people who have all of these simple answers on this would stop sitting on the sidelines and go become police officers. It seems obvious that these are the "perfect" people that never make mistakes. These people never get flustered, scared, spooked, angry, DISTRACTED, etc., etc.
I wish that these "perfect", "never make a single mistake" people would quit sitting on their hind quarters and do some good.
What is it with the "they are the ones that are supposed to keep the peace" comment? Isn't that what those police officers were attempting to do? Were the handcuffing people and detaining people because they wanted to make new friends? Were the playing a hidden camera prank on these people and that's why there were being stopped by the police? NO! They were attempting to bring peace to disruption and order to chaos. Do you think the job is so simple? Get out and try it. Don't sit and judge if you have NO EARTHLY IDEA what you are talking about.
I can speak about this with some insight because I served over twenty years defending this country. I can understand that even with the best training things can still go wrong. People make mistakes. Life isn't simple, easy, or fair.
In Iraq we had people who were scared to death. We had people who were paranoid. We had people who weren't afraid at all, also. I've known people who came back feeling alienated and angry. I've known people who now jump at the slightest bang or pop.
Trying opening your mind. Try to imagine what it would be like to be on the other side of the situation. Stop speaking like you were the one holding the gun. You don't know what was going through the person's brain despite all of his training.
Am I saying he isn't at fault? No. Am I saying he didn't do this on purpose? No. I don't know because I wasn't holding the gun, either! I can only see the video which showed the officer clearly shocked after he shot the man.
Don't try to play God...the position is already filled.


Aliana. on Jan 08, 2009 at 00:12:40 said:

The fact is, that an innocent man died, rather was KILLED!! whatever the excuse is.

I saw the video, and it is clearly the officers fault. Why would you even have to draw your weapon whether it be a glock or taser when the person was cooperating the whole time. Witnesses said that he was even trying to get his buddies to calm down and cooperate as well.

Grant had clearly cooperated, he was laying face down on the ground while he was SHOT in the back.

Confusion, Mayhem.. isn\\\'t that what cops are trained for? to handle chaotic situations. They are the ones that are suppose to keep the peace, the ones that are suppose to maintain order, yet it was the cop who committed and reacted in a disorderly manner.

Blaming the \\\"glock\\\" isn\\\'t right at all. The glock didn\\\'t draw itself out and pull its own trigger, it was the officer in suit standing over the victom that was laying face down on his belly.


RETCOMBATVET on Jan 07, 2009 at 21:28:52 said:

It is sad whenever a person is killed when there was no reason for that person to die. For whatever reason the man lost his life and there is no bringing him back. It is something that so few will learn from, however.
Why is it that no one is willing to discuss the problem with all of the bystanders? A large number of these bystanders were actually contributing to the man\'s death. Anyone standing around and yelling at the police, or at the people being detained/arrested, or approaching the police helped to increase the tension, confusion, and mayhem of the situation. All of these things can be seen on the video. Everyone wants to blame the police, or maybe just the one police officer, but no one is willing to \"man up\" and look at their own actions.
Is it any different than these protestors who are blocking the turnstiles and forcing the stations to close? Is this how they view justice? Isn\'t that exactly the kind of justice that the dead man received? Why must people do something so contrary to the justice system that it doesn\'t work? How can there ever be order with chaotic people interfering with law enforcement, staging demonstrations, retributions, and the damages they desire?
None of the crap the idiot bystanders were doing the night the victim died was helpful and nothing any of these rioters are doing is helpful either. Why can\'t some people be \"man enough\" to stay back, shut up, and let the system work itself out? If these dummies would\'ve let the lawyers and judges do their jobs then maybe the victim would still be alive.
Also, if these people really want to make a change, then they should teach their children to obey the law, don\'t disrespect the police, and take responsibility for their actions to name a few things.
I am not blaming everyone that was at the shooting. Not every bystander was causing problems that I am aware of, but it can clearly be seen AND EASILY HEARD that there were a number of idiots that helped to get that man killed.
It is such a shame that a person lost their life for whatever combination of reasons. I wish people would actually start doing some of the things I just listed so that this would end.
Signed, Sad and Tired


Milton Awaleiki on Jan 07, 2009 at 19:50:05 said:

Ban Glocks? I don't have time to switch off a safety to shoot a citizen in the back as they run away from me.


Max on Jan 07, 2009 at 17:49:48 said:

Sentences like "I’m sure the killer cop would fall out of his seat laughing" do nobody any good. You're dehumanizing the very same person you're blaming for being dehumanizing.

This cop is probably in a state of total shock remorse and guilt right now. He also became a father less than two days from this incident. Put yourself in his place. It's a terrifying place to be. As dreadful as the place Mr. Grant's family is right now, but in a different way, because he knows he took a life for no reason.

As for Glocks... they're dangerous. No external safety. Point and pull the trigger (which is light) and they go off.

Want to keep this from happening again? Ban Glock's no-safety firing mechanism and others like it from every police department in the state. That is a feasible goal and a moderate path that will save lives in the future. Ranting and dehumanizing cops does nothing.

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